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Brexit Ten Years On: The Economy

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Re: Brexit Ten Years On: The Economy

#61

Post by nostrademons »

foxygen wrote: post #53
nostrademons wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that governments should get out of the way of free trade across borders , and that the policies they make only serve to make the economy less efficient. The backdrop for the economy should be the world , and not the nation . Within it, firms should feel free to transact with whoever gets the job done best.

Are we pretending the US/NATO hasn't been interfering with the world's economy for the past decades? Or free trade here means the US being the sheriff of the world, forcing everyone else to use their currency, and bringing "freedom and democracy" to whoever thinks of challenging that?

There's plenty that the U.S. government does that it shouldn't do, and it's out of scope for this discussion.

When it comes to globalization, there is a legit role for hegemonic military power, and it's to keep trade lanes open. So for example, interdicting Somali pirates or Houthi rebels or keeping the Straight of Hormuz open would be legit uses of force. Sinking suspected drug boats in the Caribbean or imposing their own blockade would not be. Providing a stable currency is legit, using that currency to impose sanctions on countries or individuals that do things you do not like is not legit.

There is another conversation to be had about the use of power and how enforcing your ideals often comes into conflict with the values of your ideals themselves, but that is another conversation, not for this thread.

Re: Brexit Ten Years On: The Economy

#62

Post by jimjohnny123 »

vrganj wrote: post #31
mytailorisrich wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK has done alright and London has continued to do very well. Considering that there wasn't, and essentially still isn't, any plans on how to make the most (or anything...) of Brexit, that's telling, IMHO.

There is no making "the most" out of Brexit the same way there isn't a way to make "the most" out of sawing your own leg off. It was completely unforced self-mutilation. The fact they're still hobbling on is commendable, but it's still much worse than they would've been off otherwise.

You may call it self-harm, but I think we need to consider Britain's relatively pragmatic / less than enthusiastic membership of the EU. For a start, Britain has a completely different legal system to the rest of Europe (common law vs. civil law). That was bound to create tensions.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Legal_systems_in_Eur...

Re: Brexit Ten Years On: The Economy

#63

Post by kev009 »

nostrademons wrote: post #38
kev009 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The term globalization is doing a lot of work in this comment, what does it mean to you?

The idea that governments should get out of the way of free trade across borders , and that the policies they make only serve to make the economy less efficient. The backdrop for the economy should be the world , and not the nation . Within it, firms should feel free to transact with whoever gets the job done best.

That seems orthogonal to being part of a league of nations. In practice it should be easier to reduce regulation with increased sovereignty, but again there is no direct causation. The benefit of a league is collective bargaining, and potential efficiencies like standardization. The downsides are effectively the unintended consequences of that.

Re: Brexit Ten Years On: The Economy

#64

Post by notahacker »

lenerdenator wrote: post #44
notahacker wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What America has done to its soft power, public image, national security and scientific research goes a bit beyond introduce a few semi-permanent non-tariff barriers to trade and lose some votes on some decision making bodies though. Though it's certainly done that too...

> soft power, public image Yes and no. There's always been an undercurrent of contempt for the US, particularly from Europe. Even during the Clinton and Obama years. There's no satisfying that.

> There's always been an undercurrent of contempt for the US, particularly from Europe. Even during the Clinton and Obama years. There's no satisfying that.

Of course. But there's a difference between the sort of mild disdain tinged with envy you get from being the self-appointed "leader of the free world" and the reaction that electing a nakedly corrupt thundering moron who constantly belittles and threatens allies whilst kowtowing to a former superpower gets you.

(Of course, there are people that always regarded the US as actively hostile, but they tended to be rival superpowers, Global South socialist governments, Islamists and Western protest groups, not Western officials who might once have identified as strongly aligned with the US. And for the wider world, there's a difference between the longstanding view that many of the values the US preached were sanctimonious hokey and the increasing view that the values the US preaches are fundamentally opposed to stability and democracy)

Re: Brexit Ten Years On: The Economy

#65

Post by derriz »

gpt5 wrote: post #30
rm445 wrote: post #11

The EU has mildly outperformed the UK in overall economic growth by perhaps 1 percentage point over the last 5-6 years, i.e. ~7% vs ~6%. While of course both massively underperformed the USA. It's hard to avoid concluding that the actual effects of Brexit have been smaller than this kind of analysis suggests, and while we squabble about such things our countries are missing opportunity after opportunity.

If you compare UK to its equivalent developed countries (France, Germany, Italy, etc. ), without including the developing EU economies of Eastern Europe, you get that the UK’s GDP growth has outperformed the rest since brexit happened.

Have you a source? Using IMF data for GDP per capita PPP, the UK's growth has underperformed that of France, Spain and Italy over the last 10 years. In 2016 the UK's per-capita GDP in international dollars exceeded that of France by approx. $1600, estimates for 2026 are showing France being ahead by about $1000.

Re: Brexit Ten Years On: The Economy

#66

Post by milch »

dudul wrote: post #60
kibibu wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're saying the bus didn't exist?

Reading is hard I guess. I'm saying Brexit was not sold as being positive for the economy. Yes the bus probably existed, and as I said, the argument was made that the excess in EU contribution would be spent domestically instead. But improving the economy was not the main argument of the Leave. They always mostly acknowledged that it would be a bit unknown, but whatever happened would be worth it if it meant more sov…

Look at the very first point on the archived vote leave page: https://web.archive.org/web/20160620214900/http://www.votele...

Sure, you could argue that they didn't mean it would be positive for the economy to save that money, but "we will save 350M/week" is what's on the buses and their website. Even if we assume the average voter clicks through here and reads everything point by point, or goes onto the website in the first place rather than by the headline, it is at the very least heavily implied... Otherwise what is the argument?

Re: Brexit Ten Years On: The Economy

#67

Post by slater »

dudul wrote: post #60
kibibu wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're saying the bus didn't exist?

Reading is hard I guess. I'm saying Brexit was not sold as being positive for the economy. Yes the bus probably existed, and as I said, the argument was made that the excess in EU contribution would be spent domestically instead. But improving the economy was not the main argument of the Leave. They always mostly acknowledged that it would be a bit unknown, but whatever happened would be worth it if it meant more sov…

"the bus probably existed" wtf... there are photos of it, which were plastered all over media at the time. there's no "probably" about it

Re: Brexit Ten Years On: The Economy

#68

Post by foxygen »

nostrademons wrote: post #61
foxygen wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are we pretending the US/NATO hasn't been interfering with the world's economy for the past decades? Or free trade here means the US being the sheriff of the world, forcing everyone else to use their currency, and bringing "freedom and democracy" to whoever thinks of challenging that?

There's plenty that the U.S. government does that it shouldn't do, and it's out of scope for this discussion. When it comes to globalization, there is a legit role for hegemonic military power, and it's to keep trade lanes open . So for example, interdicting Somali pirates or Houthi rebels or keeping the Straight of Hormuz open would be legit uses of force. Sinking suspected drug boats in the Caribbean or imposing th…

The US did not create a neutral global free market. It created and maintains a US-centered international order that is relatively open for trade when openness aligns with American strategic interests and becomes coercive when it does not.

> Providing a stable currency is legit

The US does not "provide" a stable currency, it outright forces everyone to use it.

> how enforcing your ideals often comes into conflict with the values of your ideals themselves

The US/NATO couldn't care less about enforcing their "ideals". This is all about economic gain. It is very odd how liberal ideals must be enforced upon Iran, but not upon Saudi Arabia, which is a US ally, no?

> but that is another conversation, not for this thread

So discussing the use of force in the global economy is not fit for a thread about free-trade?

Re: Brexit Ten Years On: The Economy

#69

Post by derriz »

jimjohnny123 wrote: post #62
vrganj wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no making "the most" out of Brexit the same way there isn't a way to make "the most" out of sawing your own leg off. It was completely unforced self-mutilation. The fact they're still hobbling on is commendable, but it's still much worse than they would've been off otherwise.

You may call it self-harm, but I think we need to consider Britain's relatively pragmatic / less than enthusiastic membership of the EU. For a start, Britain has a completely different legal system to the rest of Europe (common law vs. civil law). That was bound to create tensions. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Legal_systems_in_Eur...

I don't see how you can make such a binary claim - UK vs "the rest of Europe". Your map shows 6 broad categories of legal systems in use across Europe. Even if you put the 5 non-common law systems into one bucket, it still wouldn't make the UK unique as Ireland operates under common law.

Re: Brexit Ten Years On: The Economy

#70

Post by haaz »

Glad to see that people on hackernews know more about the costs of EU regulation than Jim Ratcliffe, James Dyson, Tim Martin etc.

Just look at the AI act, GDPR, and how the EU shot their tech sector in the foot with these.

If being in the EU was so great then why don't Norway or Switzerland join?

I am an EU citizen and it is extremely convenient in my personal life (common currency, no visas, my sim card works everywhere) but I'm also aware that the most effective governments are city states such as Singapore or heavily decentralized states like UAE, Switzerland, Denmark, even China and up until recently the US and UK. The EU creates far more regulations, red tape, and friction than the single market removes, and tying the fate of the UK to dying economies like Germany and France does no one any good.

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