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Obama opposes House passage of H.R. 6429

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Re: Obama opposes House passage of H.R. 6429

#81

Post by mayneack »

btilly wrote: post #9
nhashem wrote: post #7

From the administration's response: "As a part of immigration reform, the Administration strongly supports legislation to attract and retain foreign students who graduate with advanced STEM degrees, to establish a start-up visa for foreign-born entrepreneurs to start businesses and create jobs, and to reform the employment-based immigration system to better meet the needs of the U.S. economy. However, the Administrat…

Because they want to force Democrats to be on record voting against letting entrepreneurs into the country. The potential for attack ads during the next election cycle matters more in Washington DC than actually getting things done.

Except they can't force the (Senate) Democrats to vote on it because they can just not bring it up and it will die in January.

Also, while this is framed as an immigration bill, the Democrats won't take too much bad PR in important (Hispanic) immigrant communities because the vast majority of those aren't the tech job type.

Holding out for a comprehensive plan is probably a good move for Obama because he can include this as an incentive to vote for it. If they don't get some sort of comprehensive plan, it's still good because the Democrats could basically just introduce this without the zero-sum part and then the Republicans will be the ones against both skilled and unskilled immigrants.

Re: Obama opposes House passage of H.R. 6429

#82

Post by pandaman »

commandar wrote: post #74
pandaman wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wisconsin produces half as much food as California[1] with 50 times fewer illegal immigrants[2]. I won't vouch for that site's data but having lived in both states I don't see any reason to distrust these particular numbers. [1] http://www.statemaster.com/graph/ind_foo_man_tot_val_of_shi-... [2] http://www.statemaster.com/graph/peo_est_num_of_ill_imm-peop...

This is a complete WAG, but if I were to take a stab in the dark, I suspect the makeup of Wisconsin's agriculture industry is rather different than California's. It looks like Wisconsin's industry is geared largely toward livestock and dairy, with fruit and vegetable crops largely composed of things like cranberries, corn, and potatoes: http://www.aae.wisc.edu/pubs/status/docs/status2012.pdf California, on the other…

There is no doubt the makeup of Wisconsin's agriculture industry is different. The climate alone is very different between these two states, not counting other things like availability of irrigated land, energy, transportation etc.

Edit: I was just trying to make a point that being in the country illegally does not seem like a necessary condition of food production and WI is a fine example of it. I also have no doubt that if WI had more illegal immigrants available they could be employed in the agriculture just as much as they are in CA. It just happens the closest border to WI is with Canada and Canadians don't seem to be very enthusiastic about working illegally in the America's Dairyland.

Re: Obama opposes House passage of H.R. 6429

#83

Post by stfp »

mynameishere wrote: post #26
nhashem wrote: post #7

From the administration's response: "As a part of immigration reform, the Administration strongly supports legislation to attract and retain foreign students who graduate with advanced STEM degrees, to establish a start-up visa for foreign-born entrepreneurs to start businesses and create jobs, and to reform the employment-based immigration system to better meet the needs of the U.S. economy. However, the Administrat…

without "cannibalizing" the diversity visas. Well, the diversity visas were the most brutal possible attack on sanity ever passed by a legislature. "Oh, you came from XYZ wretched backwater, here's your VISA...on the basis of your wretchedness." Sad, sad, sad, to live in such dismal times.

Can't tell if serious? A datapoint: I moved to California, from France, on a diversity visa. I have randomly met 3 other french engineers who have done the same in my first couple months here.

In the worst case it's a tiny drop wrt. to general immigration, and I'm ready to bet it tends to in fact attract highly motivated people.

Re: Obama opposes House passage of H.R. 6429

#85

Post by seldo »

Evbn wrote: post #77
seldo wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fundamentally, immigration is a market response. Demand for labor inside of a country exceeds supply -- or, more accurately, the demand for labor in the receiving country exceeds the demand in the sending country. This trade in labor is good for all the same reasons that any other trade is good: the commodity (labor) goes for the best price to the supplier to those who will most benefit from it, as indicated by their…

If immigrants benefit from social insurance, the whole equation falls apart. But you can't allow immigration and then refuse social services, so.....

Immigrants are in no way entitled to social services. If an immigrant on a work visa loses their job, they are required to leave the country within 10 days. However, immigrants on visas still pay full taxes. So actually, immigrants make social services cheaper to provide.

Any other general goods -- roads, fire services, etc. -- are paid for by taxes, and immigrants pay all the same taxes as citizens.

Re: Obama opposes House passage of H.R. 6429

#86

Post by stfp »

Evbn wrote: post #77
seldo wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fundamentally, immigration is a market response. Demand for labor inside of a country exceeds supply -- or, more accurately, the demand for labor in the receiving country exceeds the demand in the sending country. This trade in labor is good for all the same reasons that any other trade is good: the commodity (labor) goes for the best price to the supplier to those who will most benefit from it, as indicated by their…

If immigrants benefit from social insurance, the whole equation falls apart. But you can't allow immigration and then refuse social services, so.....

Diversity Visas specifically check for that though - you must show you have enough funds to get there and support yourself.

Re: Obama opposes House passage of H.R. 6429

#87

Post by commandar »

pandaman wrote: post #82
commandar wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a complete WAG, but if I were to take a stab in the dark, I suspect the makeup of Wisconsin's agriculture industry is rather different than California's. It looks like Wisconsin's industry is geared largely toward livestock and dairy, with fruit and vegetable crops largely composed of things like cranberries, corn, and potatoes: http://www.aae.wisc.edu/pubs/status/docs/status2012.pdf California, on the other…

There is no doubt the makeup of Wisconsin's agriculture industry is different. The climate alone is very different between these two states, not counting other things like availability of irrigated land, energy, transportation etc. Edit: I was just trying to make a point that being in the country illegally does not seem like a necessary condition of food production and WI is a fine example of it. I also have no doubt…

Well, part of what I was getting at is that it appears, from my layman's point of view, that WI's agriculture business is geared more toward crops that are easily industrialized and would require fewer workers in general.

e.g., a single worker operating a piece of machinery can harvest hundreds of acres of corn. A tomato, on the other hand, has to be hand-picked so that the fruit isn't damaged in the process. That requires substantially more workers.

Re: Obama opposes House passage of H.R. 6429

#88

Post by georgeorwell »

sthatipamala wrote: post #44
seldo wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are Visas available to anybody, for any reason, from any country. They are good because immigration is good. But let me explain a bit further. Most American visas are related to a specific job, or a family connection, or education. You can't just turn up and stay -- you have to have a reason, and a ton of documentation. But that's not how immigration has, historically, worked: the original American colonists and…

Could you tell me why you claim immigration is fundamentally good? Interested in hearing more.

This isn't an argument for good or bad, but America was founded by immigrants and they've continued to arrive and build the country ever since 1776. If you think the American state is a good thing, it seems reasonable to favor immigration.

Personally, I believe that no human is fundamentally better than another and that we don't own the planet but merely inhabit it. This means I also believe we all deserve to be treated as equal citizens of a global nation. I realize that in practice you can't just dissolve all the borders at once, but nevertheless less restrictive border controls which includes things like increased immigration push things towards that ideal.

Re: Obama opposes House passage of H.R. 6429

#89

Post by rhizome »

pyre wrote: post #28
deepGem wrote: post #17

I don't understand what's really wrong in diverting 55,000 visas from a random, unplanned allocation scheme (diversity) to a more metrics driven allocation scheme (education). How is this not 'true reform'?

Is there a reason that we need to reallocate current visas? Why not just create 55K new STEM visas?

This way more less-educated people will have to stay in their home countries while an increased capacity for "advanced STEM degree" holders will both sap the intelligent workers from other countries and convert them into US taxpayers who are relatively captive as long as they want to stay in the US.

Re: Obama opposes House passage of H.R. 6429

#90

Post by stfp »

celer wrote: post #65
scarmig wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is, of course, totally insane to let people voluntarily choose to work here and make voluntary economic transactions with other adults who voluntarily want to pay them money to provide goods and services for Americans to voluntarily purchase.

Well, yes, when you are making the decision based on someone being from a poor country. There are better measures on which visas could be distributed. I strongly support increasing the number of total visas, but that is separate.

> Well, yes, when you are making the decision based on someone being from a poor country.

But that's not the case.

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