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Obama opposes House passage of H.R. 6429

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Re: Obama opposes House passage of H.R. 6429

#61
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are Visas available to anybody, for any reason, from any country. They are good because immigration is good. But let me explain a bit further. Most American visas are related to a specific job, or a family connection, or education. You can't just turn up and stay -- you have to have a reason, and a ton of documentation. But that's not how immigration has, historically, worked: the original American colonists and…

Could you tell me why you claim immigration is fundamentally good? Interested in hearing more.

Prevents inbreeding of ideas. Some of those immigrants may be a heretic monkey. This passage from the anime "Irresponsible Captain Tylor" [1] explains it better.

"Do you know about monkey tribes? Monkey tribes are very organized, with a leader at the top. Now, once every few years without fail, a renegade monkey leaves his tribe and tries to join another one. The members of the new tribe greet the renegade monkey by beating it to a bloody pulp. And yet those renegade monkeys, those heretic monkeys if you will, are a providence from nature. Why? Because they keep the bloodlines from becoming too thick, from too much inbreeding within the tribe. So, you could say that those heretics are essential for survival. Heretics are essential for survival."

[1] http://greybeta.dreamwidth.org/179747.html

Re: Obama opposes House passage of H.R. 6429

#62
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are Visas available to anybody, for any reason, from any country. They are good because immigration is good. But let me explain a bit further. Most American visas are related to a specific job, or a family connection, or education. You can't just turn up and stay -- you have to have a reason, and a ton of documentation. But that's not how immigration has, historically, worked: the original American colonists and…

Could you tell me why you claim immigration is fundamentally good? Interested in hearing more.

Fundamentally, immigration is a market response. Demand for labor inside of a country exceeds supply -- or, more accurately, the demand for labor in the receiving country exceeds the demand in the sending country.

This trade in labor is good for all the same reasons that any other trade is good: the commodity (labor) goes for the best price to the supplier to those who will most benefit from it, as indicated by their being willing to pay the most. Both parties benefit, it's a clear win-win, no problem. Right?

It gets a little more complicated in the case of immigration, for a bunch of reasons. Firstly: are the suppliers and sellers in this transaction nations, or individuals? You can look at it both ways:

If the parties in the trade are nations, then the benefit is rather lopsided to the receiving country: they get a new, productive worker, and any money they give that worker is mostly spent inside the receiving country, boosting that economy further. The sending country gets nothing -- even though it spent money educating that worker, providing them with healthcare, etc.. In practice, however, many immigrants send money back to family in their home country, a substantial flow of money known as remittances.

If the parties in the trade are individuals, the win-win nature is also obvious: the company gets a worker that they would otherwise have been unable to afford, the worker gets a better-paying job than they would have got in their home country.

But there's a third way of looking at it, and this is where things get tricky.

I could also have phrased the above as "for cheaper than a local worker". In practice, that's not usually how it works. Hiring an immigrant is generally more expensive and inconvenient than a native -- if a company could find a native worker to do the same work for the same price, they would rationally do so. However, the ability to hire immigrant workers at that price does prevent the company from raising the price it's willing to pay.

More simply: while the company wins, and the immigrant wins, a third party worker in the receiving country has, in one sense, lost: they could have got the job if they were willing to work for the same price as the immigrant, but not if they wanted more.

Immigration holds down labor prices, and this is where the trouble starts, because the connection between lower labor prices and greater prosperity for all is indirect and poorly understood.

When labor is cheaper, the goods those workers make can be sold for less (and, in a competitive market, will be). This means anybody buying those products is directly better off -- immigration has saved them money. They will then take that money and spend it on other things, and those sellers will spend it again on yet more things, until eventually somebody gets around to buying the goods being made by the third-party worker. He sells more of those goods, and so makes more money than before.

So any individual third-party worker is worse off because of immigration -- instead, everybody in the country shares a little bit of the benefit, and the total value created is greater than if the immigrant had never arrived, because there are two workers instead of one.

Resistance to immigration is, fundamentally, an acknowledgement of the selfish impulse to be personally better off, rather than making the whole nation richer. That makes it a big good economically, and a tough sell politically.

Re: Obama opposes House passage of H.R. 6429

#63
post #13

What is the argument for 55000 random visas at a time when the US economy is doing very poorly? Is this a game? US citizenship clearly has market value. Billions of dollars could be raised by turning these into entrepreneur visas or charging per visa (it's not like the US doesn't already do this, but the price is way too low). If we're taxing current citizens, and we have 50% exit taxes, why not entry taxes? When dem…

Thanks for weighing in with your uninformed opinion on something while also invoking the age old "when the US economy is doing very poorly" straw man which has nothing to do with the DV lottery. Those DV lottery winners pay US taxes while having no citizenship rights, so you have literally no idea what you're talking about.

actually, after 5 years you can apply for citizenship

Re: Obama opposes House passage of H.R. 6429

#64

I'm not sure it was a good idea to oppose this. It's essentially the republicans saying "We don't want to let any more people in the country, but of the people we are letting in, we prefer the highly educated". In a time when countries like China are graduating 50k engineers a year, you'd think being choosy about who you let into the country would make sense. And I don't see how signing this hurts the Democrats' long…

It takes away the Republicans' opportunity to claim they already addressed immigration reform and that any further action is the President "going too far."

The Republicans are between a rock and a hard place politically on immigration. Latinos are the fastest-growing demographic in the country, and Republican hostility toward immigration reform is starting to cost them in elections. e.g., Obama pummeled Romney among Latino voters in Florida by an over 2-to-1 margin. [1]

The Republicans have essentially painted themselves into a corner on the issue and are in a no-win situation. If they continue to aggressively oppose immigration reform, it's going to hurt them with an increasingly-important demographic. If they concede and compromise, Obama and the Democrats get to claim themselves as the champions of immigration reform, which still hurts the Republicans, though to a lesser degree.

Obama knows he has major leverage over the Republicans on this issue; it doesn't make political sense to make concessions they can paint as wins if it's not the reform he's actually after.

[1] http://www.pewhispanic.org/2012/11/07/latino-voters-in-the-2...

Re: Obama opposes House passage of H.R. 6429

#65
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

without "cannibalizing" the diversity visas. Well, the diversity visas were the most brutal possible attack on sanity ever passed by a legislature. "Oh, you came from XYZ wretched backwater, here's your VISA...on the basis of your wretchedness." Sad, sad, sad, to live in such dismal times.

It is, of course, totally insane to let people voluntarily choose to work here and make voluntary economic transactions with other adults who voluntarily want to pay them money to provide goods and services for Americans to voluntarily purchase.

Well, yes, when you are making the decision based on someone being from a poor country. There are better measures on which visas could be distributed. I strongly support increasing the number of total visas, but that is separate.

Re: Obama opposes House passage of H.R. 6429

#66

I'm not sure it was a good idea to oppose this. It's essentially the republicans saying "We don't want to let any more people in the country, but of the people we are letting in, we prefer the highly educated". In a time when countries like China are graduating 50k engineers a year, you'd think being choosy about who you let into the country would make sense. And I don't see how signing this hurts the Democrats' long…

It takes away the Republicans' opportunity to claim they already addressed immigration reform and that any further action is the President "going too far." The Republicans are between a rock and a hard place politically on immigration. Latinos are the fastest-growing demographic in the country, and Republican hostility toward immigration reform is starting to cost them in elections. e.g., Obama pummeled Romney among…

Thanks for the insight, I suppose it does sound like he made the right choice for his party. Interesting.

Re: Obama opposes House passage of H.R. 6429

#67
The diversity lottery is actually good immigration policy. Each year you take a sample of average or above average (applicants must have a high school education and no criminal history, and must pass some health tests as well; they must also show they will not be a burden to society once they get in) from countries around the world with historically low immigration rates to your country.

Essentially these are candidates that have self-selected as being willing to start anew in a new country, working hard to improve their lives in the process. In return, your culture is enriched and your economy is boosted by a fresh set of ambitious, hard-working 1st-generation immigrants. Some of these immigrants may go on to become engineers, teachers, doctors, cab drivers, entrepreneurs, nurses etc. But they won't drain your social safety net, they will contribute to it. They're here to work, to make up for lost time, and to make a better future for their offspring. As immigration policies go, I think this is one of the better ones.

Re: Obama opposes House passage of H.R. 6429

#68
post #14

On the other hand: does the glut of tech workers drive down wages? If you strictly look at it from a supply/demand angle, one could argue that if these companies wanted more techies, they could just pay more. Being able to increase supply at will (i.e. import techies) will naturally drive down prices (i.e. wages). The same argument is made about illegal immigration: these immigrants fill low-end jobs that don't pay w…

I can't imagine why US engineers would support a bill like this from a benefit analysis perspective. It should be obvious that if you add engineers, prices will go down. I can completely understand supporting it for moral reasons however.

I like working with colleagues from other countries. (I'm also marrying one.) I'd rather the best of the world do their great work inside of the US rather than outside.

Re: Obama opposes House passage of H.R. 6429

#69
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see the point of these shenanigans. If they want to on TV and lie about their opponents, they can do that. Do they need the phony bill titles for plausibility? The voting public is nowhere near smart enough to soft through the distinctions.

They do it because it's effective. Max Cleland lost his Senate race to Saxby Chambliss in 2002 partially on the back of attack ads that showed images of Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein while claiming Cleland didn't support President Bush's "vital security measures." In reality, the votes in question involved things like Cleland voting against a Republican and for a Democratic version of a proposal, or larger bills…

Max Cleland is known to hate America. He was only willing to sacrifice three of his limbs in the service of the United States Army.

Saxby Chambliss, on the other hand, is a true patriot who proves this by yelling and screaming about it and never letting some pedantic BS about the "Constitution" obstruct his plans to remake America into his utopian vision as expressed by the movie "Idiocracy".

Re: Obama opposes House passage of H.R. 6429

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A little OT : Here's a great example of a bill being written with explicit intent of making anyone who votes against it look like a terrible person: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protecting_Children_from_Intern... Written by Lamar Smith, Mr. Privacy Invader himself -- make sure to read the Privacy issues section of the wiki page

Lamar Smith also authored the existing immigration law (IIRIRA) which is widely considered to be an abject failure. One provision had esteemed Judge Richard Posner exclaiming 'the law can't be that ridiculous!' before setting it aside in a recent case. The law had a provision for granting advance parole to people whose immigration proceedings were incomplete so they could leave the country for things like weddings, f…

Good thing he's chairing the next House Science Committee.

http://science.house.gov/press-release/chairman-hall-congrat...

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