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Preparing for KDE Plasma's Last X11-Supported Release

blog.davidedmundson.co.uk

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Re: Preparing for KDE Plasma's Last X11-Supported Release

#371

Post by babypuncher »

kelnos wrote: post #213
babypuncher wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't speak for Gnome, but KDE makes it pretty easy to create rules that apply automatically to any new window that meets whatever arbitrary criteria you set.

That's terrible. That's an "unbreak my software" preference. User's shouldn't have to mess with that; things should just work in ways they expect, out of the box.

I disagree. With how KDE handles this, I'm not at the mercy of the software vendor's whims on what windows stay on top and which ones don't. I have complete control through a standardized interface that can even be automated if I wish.

Does it require a little more knowledge on the part of the user? Yes, but it's worth it because with that knowledge comes power.

Re: Preparing for KDE Plasma's Last X11-Supported Release

#372

Post by MarsIronPI »

bandrami wrote: post #261
account42 wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The story of Wayland - restrict what applications can do in the name of "security" only to re-add the same thing in a compositor-specific way after years of pain inflicted on everyone. Wayland is fundamentally designed for the smartphone model and has no place on an open desktop.

I agree with the Wayland premise that having an old and hairy library everybody is afraid to touch is bad, but having those same capabilities implemented piecemeal and incompatibly by five (and counting!) compositor ecosystems in ways that aren't well-tested or well-integrated isn't better.

IMO Phoenix[0] is what Wayland should have been: a reimplementation of X11. We didn't need a new protocol.

https://git.dec05eba.com/phoenix

Re: Preparing for KDE Plasma's Last X11-Supported Release

#373

Post by dwattttt »

LtWorf wrote: post #360
dwattttt wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not actually a good thing. General purpose programming languages as configuration file formats also give you "can do anything"; but when it comes time to try to improve or update the Python package ecosystem, you're forced to break backwards compatibility. Or give up on whole classes of improvements, because you can't constrain package behaviour at all.

You mean like how wayland is breaking backwards compatibility?

Yes, I do. And X11 is the "Or give up on whole classes of improvements, because you can't constrain package behaviour at all."

Or really, give up on anything that might change behaviour, if you don't want to break back compat.

Re: Preparing for KDE Plasma's Last X11-Supported Release

#374

Post by LtWorf »

dwattttt wrote: post #373
LtWorf wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean like how wayland is breaking backwards compatibility?

Yes, I do. And X11 is the "Or give up on whole classes of improvements, because you can't constrain package behaviour at all." Or really, give up on anything that might change behaviour, if you don't want to break back compat.

The only improvement is isolation, which I don't care about since apps can all access my clipboard and my home anyway.

Re: Preparing for KDE Plasma's Last X11-Supported Release

#376

Post by gmueckl »

redeeman wrote: post #362
gmueckl wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try to move a browser window when you have 20+ tabs open. This is an incredibly bad UX.

alt + left mouse button anywhere in the window (maybe win button or something is default now). using the titlebar for moving a window is extremely backwards and productivity killer. that being said, I agree with you, and I think its an outright abomination to put the tabs in the titlebar, and its disgusting how crome and firefox by default removes the real titlebar

Alt+LMB drag is impossible to do properly, at least on Windows, because too many applications use that for their own inputs. There are some X11 applications that also use that (Blender?), so while it's cool when it works, it comes with pretty severe problems.

Re: Preparing for KDE Plasma's Last X11-Supported Release

#377

Post by akimbostrawman »

account42 wrote: post #262
ahartmetz wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crash reports are only mentioned as confirmation of other statistics, and in any case, the vast majority of crashes have nothing to do with the window system used.

The other "stats" being "all my buddies use Wayland".

Instead of rage baiting you could have just read the blog post to figure out its opt in telemetry, crash reports (most of which won't be x11/Wayland related) is being used as an additional metric to confirm that trend.

Re: Preparing for KDE Plasma's Last X11-Supported Release

#378

Post by akimbostrawman »

tosti wrote: post #38
mug1 wrote: post #10

I do like how the wayland usage statistic are based on wayland apps crashing more than x11 apps

Linux users are more likely not to opt-in and actively opt-out of spyware, telemetry, or whatever you want to call it. The ones that don't are more likely those who leave things on defaults, are involved with the project or a distro, or similar. No, I don't have anything that backs this up. The statistics they're using can never be accurate, by virtue of being free software that ships on privacy concious distros to p…

Since KDE telemetry is privacy conscious too, I as a privacy conscious linux user see little issue with enabling it.

Re: Preparing for KDE Plasma's Last X11-Supported Release

#379

Post by jackyard86 »

I prefer software rendering, I don't use compositor, and I never will.

In software rendering, CPU only updates screen when changes are detected. And the change completes as fast as the computer can. So that's minimal latency + minimal resource consumed.

If you're on a compositor, the 3D accelerator in your computer has to update the screen 60 times every second. It's even worse when you have a higher refresh rate display. And compositors update the buffer as soon as the previous buffer is pushed after the v-sync signal, and then it just waits until the next signal comes in. So there comes the terrible input delay. As a result, it comsumes more power and has higher latency.

So in conclusion, fuck Wayland, and I'm going with xfce without compositor.

Re: Preparing for KDE Plasma's Last X11-Supported Release

#380

Post by akimbostrawman »

milliams wrote: post #337

The main blocker I have for moving is the poor session management. On X11 for decades I've been able to log out of my KDE session and when I log in again, all my Konsole windows re-open with the tabs open in the same folders, Dolphin opens with all the tabs open to the same locations etc. I think they recently added support at the KWin level for reopening windows to the right desktops etc but as far as each individua…

>it seems to be up to them individually to get this working again

Just like on x11 for the overwhelming majority of applications it's implemented in and handled by the applications framework like GTK, QT, electron, ...

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