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Preparing for KDE Plasma's Last X11-Supported Release

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Re: Preparing for KDE Plasma's Last X11-Supported Release

#261

Post by bandrami »

account42 wrote: post #235
bsder wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pointer warp not generally supported so CAD programs fail in bizarre ways. Although I think that there is FINALLY an actual spec for pointer warp. However, very few compositors support it.

The story of Wayland - restrict what applications can do in the name of "security" only to re-add the same thing in a compositor-specific way after years of pain inflicted on everyone. Wayland is fundamentally designed for the smartphone model and has no place on an open desktop.

I agree with the Wayland premise that having an old and hairy library everybody is afraid to touch is bad, but having those same capabilities implemented piecemeal and incompatibly by five (and counting!) compositor ecosystems in ways that aren't well-tested or well-integrated isn't better.

Re: Preparing for KDE Plasma's Last X11-Supported Release

#262

Post by account42 »

ahartmetz wrote: post #17
mug1 wrote: post #10

I do like how the wayland usage statistic are based on wayland apps crashing more than x11 apps

Crash reports are only mentioned as confirmation of other statistics, and in any case, the vast majority of crashes have nothing to do with the window system used.

The other "stats" being "all my buddies use Wayland".

Re: Preparing for KDE Plasma's Last X11-Supported Release

#263

Post by account42 »

nickserv wrote: post #157
tosti wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Linux users are more likely not to opt-in and actively opt-out of spyware, telemetry, or whatever you want to call it. The ones that don't are more likely those who leave things on defaults, are involved with the project or a distro, or similar. No, I don't have anything that backs this up. The statistics they're using can never be accurate, by virtue of being free software that ships on privacy concious distros to p…

Linux are also more likely to contribute bug reports and crash dumps. Security conscious doesn't mean not getting involved with the community and helping useful projects.

Linux users contribute bug reports to projects that actually care about them and don't leave usability regressions open to decade long bikesheds. KDE is not one of those projects.

Re: Preparing for KDE Plasma's Last X11-Supported Release

#264

Post by account42 »

superkuh wrote: post #49
mug1 wrote: post #10

I do like how the wayland usage statistic are based on wayland apps crashing more than x11 apps

And the statistics are only from the latest release, not over all KDE users. They mention this in the text but the disengenuous plot is what people see. >For transparency, the one caveat in all of the above is that I've deliberately always focused on people using the latest Plasma release. We do still have a sizable chunk of users on X11 still using Plasma 5.27. Including them, the total Wayland adoption rate is abou…

Yeah, and considering how KDE developers have been introducing bugs for X11 as their main strategy for Wayland to reach feature parity I expect many X11 users are holding out upgrades as long as possible.

Re: Preparing for KDE Plasma's Last X11-Supported Release

#265

Post by mx7zysuj4xew »

rendaw wrote: post #199
lunixbochs wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi, I'm the developer of Talon. It's possible to do the simple compositor specific hacks from Talon's scripting system to give yourself partial Wayland support at roughly the quality I'd be able to provide myself, and I know of a couple efforts to do this. The tentative plan for "dropping support for X11" is just to do one more public Linux X11 release, stop there, leave it available to download, and make it very cle…

This seems like it basically confirms ggp's complaints: You're not interested in addressing customers' needs, or giving them ways to address their needs themselves, and are instead taking a "if this doesn't meet my standards you're not allowed to do it" standpoint. If slack interactions are so unpleasant, why do you direct all support through it? Is there no way you could say "yes this is a hack, but we'll live with…

And why should he be?

He provided a working version for Linux, he will continue to provide a version for Linux.

Wayland is deliberately sabotaging the Linux desktop by forcing it's way in, developers have their own time and schedule and do not appreciate being forced to throw out working code just because others want to reinvent the wheel. If Wayland did it right they had proper backward compatibility and none of this breakage would happen

Re: Preparing for KDE Plasma's Last X11-Supported Release

#266

Post by account42 »

unethical_ban wrote: post #164

It seems to me like such a drastic change in the underlying system (removing support of one of two major display platforms) would mandate a major version change. Complete removal of X11 should be an event to trigger KDE 7.0.

KDE 4.0 has already shown that KDE developers have a very different understanding of version numbers compared to users.

Re: Preparing for KDE Plasma's Last X11-Supported Release

#267

Post by mx7zysuj4xew »

account42 wrote: post #234
suby wrote: post #46

I read this yesterday wanted to raise awareness for it - https://nocoffei.com/?p=451 It describes the regression in accessibility software for Linux from x11 to Wayland. Unfortunately, judging by the pace of protocols being accepted, I think we're years out from having a solution. The most notable thing not working is Talon, which is a voice input system that lets you insert speech to text, manipulate windows, call s…

It's not just accessibility software but really any customization. Like always the people making the decision to break compatibility and benefiting by being able to work on the cool new thing don't even pay a fraction of the pain inflicted by it.

[flagged]

Re: Preparing for KDE Plasma's Last X11-Supported Release

#268

Post by account42 »

calvinmorrison wrote: post #9

"We can't promise to get everything fixed in time for 6.8, but we can promise to listen and be aware. " What is with KDE and releasing broken software? What's the rush to release when there are known issues?

You will install the update and you will like it (or be banned).

Re: Preparing for KDE Plasma's Last X11-Supported Release

#269

Post by zarzavat »

thesuitonym wrote: post #80
idoubtit wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not too bad? A hidden procedure with ten clicks, which the user has to repeat for each web browser. And it may break at any time if the browser changes some details. Or if KDE changes. And it's specific to KDE, with no alternatives in most Wayland WMs. All that for _one_ feature which works out-of-the-box with Xorg, and which Wayland removed for security reasons. From what I've seen, sharing the screen is another com…

Look, I'm not a Wayland booster, I still prefer X11 most of the time, but this is really the way it should work. Applications should not be allowed to dictate how windows appear. That is the job of the window manager. Chrome's PIP is a stupid workaround for Windows and Mac because they do not have robust window management.

The job of the window manager is to manage windows if the user wants it to do that. However there's many situations in which users want the application to be in charge of window positioning.

Making a decision on the user's behalf doesn't sound very free to me.

Re: Preparing for KDE Plasma's Last X11-Supported Release

#270

Post by bayindirh »

cmxch wrote: post #191
suby wrote: post #46

I read this yesterday wanted to raise awareness for it - https://nocoffei.com/?p=451 It describes the regression in accessibility software for Linux from x11 to Wayland. Unfortunately, judging by the pace of protocols being accepted, I think we're years out from having a solution. The most notable thing not working is Talon, which is a voice input system that lets you insert speech to text, manipulate windows, call s…

It’ll be a better place when Wayland (and by extension Gnome/KDE) stops becoming a cargo cult hell bent on destroying X11/Xlibre.

X11 is not dying because of Wayland, it's dying because it became an unmaintainable code mountain over the years since it has been tried to be converted to something which is not designed for in the first place.

...and I'm saying that as a person who likes X11.

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