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Green card seekers must leave U.S. to apply, Trump administration says

nytimes.com

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Re: Green card seekers must leave U.S. to apply, Trump administration says

#941

Post by anigbrowl »

rayiner wrote: post #925
skeeter2020 wrote: post #633

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Adjustment of Status has been on the books since the start in the 1950's, and was greatly expanded leading into what might turn out to be the high point of the country in the late 90's and early 2000's.

What “the books” say is that H1B is a “nonimmigrant” visa for people “temporarily” in the U.S. It’s right there in 8 USC 1101(a)(15)(H). “Adjustment of status” is an option at the discretion of the administration (8 USC 1255(a)): > The status of an alien who was inspected and admitted or paroled into the United States … may be adjusted by the Attorney General, in his discretion and under such regulations as he may pr…

A misrepresentation. 'Adjustment of status' is not 'if the government really likes you', it's a process that's available by rule. And the federal rulemaking process, as you are fully aware, involves publication in the federal register, solicitation and and collation of public comment, and republication of teh final rule, again, in the federal register.

Incidentally, we don't have an attorney general at present, only an acting one (Trump's former personal lawyer), and I question the standing of an unconfirmed federal officer to alter existing rules, never mind to bypass the federal rulemaking process entirely.

Re: Green card seekers must leave U.S. to apply, Trump administration says

#942

Post by infamia »

testing22321 wrote: post #655
varenc wrote: post #443

The internal memo on this is interesting: https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/memos/PM-... Essentially they're trying to change the rules by aggressive re-interpretation of the existing legal framework, and not actually changing any laws or regulations. I don't follow all of it, but it seems to be arguing that the "ordinary consular process", leaving the country and applying for a visa from abroad, is…

I don’t want to defend the cure administration, but it’s very common and normal for a country to require a person to leave to change status. Every time my Canadian work visa expired I had to drive over the border, enter the US, turn around and drive back to start the new one. The border guards call it “flag-poling” because you do a U turn around the flag pole. When I went from work visa to permanent resident I had to…

> I don’t want to defend the cure administration, but it’s very common and normal for a country to require a person to leave to change status.

This new policy is different than the "flag poling" you've described. The new guidance requires immigrants to return to their country of origin, then apply for the change in status, and wait in their country of origin while the change in status is being processed/considered which can take many years. If the status changed is approved, they can move back to the US.

Re: Green card seekers must leave U.S. to apply, Trump administration says

#943

Post by hax0ron3 »

tootie wrote: post #722
varenc wrote: post #443

The internal memo on this is interesting: https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/memos/PM-... Essentially they're trying to change the rules by aggressive re-interpretation of the existing legal framework, and not actually changing any laws or regulations. I don't follow all of it, but it seems to be arguing that the "ordinary consular process", leaving the country and applying for a visa from abroad, is…

They have repeatedly taken incredibly broad if not downright delusional interpretations of legal precedent and used them to set policy. They literally tried to override a constitutional amendment (birthright citizenship) with an executive order. They have been laughed out of court many times but have won a shocking number of these ridiculous cases. This is just another one. Set the maximal policy that they want and m…

Trying to follow the Constitution literally is hard and in practice, it's not done. The political system just interprets the Constitution in whatever way the consensus of the given moment wants to interpret it. The 14th Amendment is clear that all persons born in the US are citizens of the US. However, if you follow the 2nd Amendment just as literally, it means that the Federal government, at least, cannot make any laws restricting us from owning nuclear weapons.

Re: Green card seekers must leave U.S. to apply, Trump administration says

#944

Post by hax0ron3 »

cogman10 wrote: post #165

So much of the US immigration process is built around punishing and exploiting. The primary reason for the strong border is allowing farms and construction companies to find cheap labor which can't complain about mistreatment. It helps that a decent portion of the population hates and/or is fearful anyone different from themselves. That is what's allowed for these even more draconian and brutal measures.

I question the idea that the US has a strong border compared to other countries of a comparable economic and development level.

Also, allowing farms and construction companies to find cheap labor is a reason for a weak border, not a reason for a strong border.

Re: Green card seekers must leave U.S. to apply, Trump administration says

#945

Post by geodel »

esalman wrote: post #280

I received my green card in 2023 and I have mixed emotions. On one hand, I'm so relieved that I have been able to dodge everything that the administration has been throwing at immigrant (legal and illegal alike), trying to see what sticks, like mass deportations, border wall expansion, visa restrictions, asylum crackdown, H-1B cuts, and chain Migration Ban. On the other hand, we cannot apply for citizenship for 3 mor…

What's with tax thing? Is it only paid in US? Are they not supposed to pay taxes when they have taxable income?

If one paid 100K+ in taxes I assume one had opportunities to make such high income by being in US which one can be thankful for.

> On the other hand, we cannot apply for citizenship for 3 more years, ...

I am sorry but I am just seeing too much of an entitlement here.

Re: Green card seekers must leave U.S. to apply, Trump administration says

#946

Post by softwaredoug »

varenc wrote: post #443

The internal memo on this is interesting: https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/memos/PM-... Essentially they're trying to change the rules by aggressive re-interpretation of the existing legal framework, and not actually changing any laws or regulations. I don't follow all of it, but it seems to be arguing that the "ordinary consular process", leaving the country and applying for a visa from abroad, is…

Not only is changing laws harder. Changing regulations requires following the Administrative Procedure Act. They might also be short circuiting APA - as in typical for this admin to attempt.

Re: Green card seekers must leave U.S. to apply, Trump administration says

#947

Post by cogman10 »

hax0ron3 wrote: post #944
cogman10 wrote: post #165

So much of the US immigration process is built around punishing and exploiting. The primary reason for the strong border is allowing farms and construction companies to find cheap labor which can't complain about mistreatment. It helps that a decent portion of the population hates and/or is fearful anyone different from themselves. That is what's allowed for these even more draconian and brutal measures.

I question the idea that the US has a strong border compared to other countries of a comparable economic and development level. Also, allowing farms and construction companies to find cheap labor is a reason for a weak border, not a reason for a strong border.

> I question the idea that the US has a strong border compared to other countries of a comparable economic and development level.

It's all over the map. A lot of countries are easier to visit. Becoming a citizen, however, is difficult for most countries.

> Also, allowing farms and construction companies to find cheap labor is a reason for a weak border, not a reason for a strong border.

You are mistaken in thinking this is a normal labor market. The reason it reduces prices is because it weakens the ability for labor to negotiate. A strong border with internal enforcement makes it easier for a farmer to tell a day laborer "do this, or I'll call ICE on you". How well do you think a day laborer can negotiate a raise in that circumstance?

Consider, for example, the fact that farmers aren't employing US citizens or documented workers even though they are infinitely more abundant than undocumented workers. Why do you think that is? What mechanism is making the undocumented worker cheap and the documented one expensive?

A fast path to documentation and more rights lets more people in, but it also increases the labor costs because the workers are able to negotiate in the market.

Re: Green card seekers must leave U.S. to apply, Trump administration says

#948

Post by brimwats »

freetonik wrote: post #757
testing22321 wrote: post #655

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t want to defend the cure administration, but it’s very common and normal for a country to require a person to leave to change status. Every time my Canadian work visa expired I had to drive over the border, enter the US, turn around and drive back to start the new one. The border guards call it “flag-poling” because you do a U turn around the flag pole. When I went from work visa to permanent resident I had to…

That’s strange. I was able to renew a work permit in Canada while staying (and continuing work) in Canada. Same for study permit. This was over a decade ago, so perhaps things have changed. They also were not called visas, but permits. Visa is for entering the country, permit is for staying.

you can renew the same permit without, but you can't go from one type of permit to another (student to working prof in my case) without flagpoling; you also can't go from a visa to a permit without flagpoling

Re: Green card seekers must leave U.S. to apply, Trump administration says

#949

Post by rayiner »

softwaredoug wrote: post #946
varenc wrote: post #443

The internal memo on this is interesting: https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/memos/PM-... Essentially they're trying to change the rules by aggressive re-interpretation of the existing legal framework, and not actually changing any laws or regulations. I don't follow all of it, but it seems to be arguing that the "ordinary consular process", leaving the country and applying for a visa from abroad, is…

Not only is changing laws harder. Changing regulations requires following the Administrative Procedure Act. They might also be short circuiting APA - as in typical for this admin to attempt.

What part of this memo changes the regulations? The punchline is this: “Where adjustment of status is in the discretion of USCIS, officers are reminded that they are to consider all relevant factors and information in the totality of the circumstances in exercising that discretion.”

All the memo is saying is reminding USCIS officers that adjustment of status is an act of administrative grace and applicants aren’t entitled to have their status adjusted. That’s always been true.

Re: Green card seekers must leave U.S. to apply, Trump administration says

#950

Post by sarlalian »

pixel_popping wrote: post #880
aucisson_masque wrote: post #834

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Immigrating to the usa is not a right. It is granted. I don't see the problem, and I'm not even American or Trump supporter. It just makes sense.

That's what I just commented as well, I'm not from the US but that seems so obvious, in which country it's a "right" of some sort? It should definitely be hard, maybe even very hard to emigrate there, to show strong commitment and intent and most especially you should have something special to bring to the table knowing you didn't abed by the same rules growing-up (not the same level of education necessarily and so-o…

Part of it is cultural due to the origins of our country. We are mostly a country of immigrants. On the base of the Statue of Liberty is a poem “The New Colossus” which says:

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame, With conquering limbs astride from land to land; Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

There are reasons beyond the cultural history or being a country of immigrants. Much of the innovation of the US over it’s history is due to immigrants. From modern physics, the telephone, the Internet, mRNA vaccines, etc. 46% of Fortune 500 companies were founded by Immigrants or their children. 44% of billion dollar tech startups are immigrants.

Without immigration, the US would have negative population growth, which is economically probably a disaster. We’d have to achieve impossible levels of productivity to support the larger aging populations. Additionally the job losses you mention are mostly in Technology, Finance and Government… sectors that aren’t exactly dominated by immigrant labor.

Being protectionist doesn’t typically work out from a cost and labor perspective. We already have shortages in farming, construction and health care labor, which are often populated by immigrants. So overall, we’d have more unfilled positions, which would result in higher prices, etc. Native born Americans just don’t seem to want those jobs.

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