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Nobody understands the point of hybrid cars [video]

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Re: Nobody understands the point of hybrid cars [video]

#121

Post by DanielHB »

graemep wrote: post #76
tedggh wrote: post #50

I have all three ICE, EV and hybrid at home. I was hesitant at first when getting the EV because we already had the hybrid, but we needed a second SUV to carry kids. After two years with the EV it became evident to me the hybrid doesn’t make sense. It has some of the gas savings of an EV but you still deal with the inconvenience of maintaining a ICE. My EV has received zero maintenance other than cleaning the cameras…

How many kids do you have that you need two SUVs to carry them all? its not common.

Oh god just reading the other responses to this thread I am glad I don't live in the car-dependent place (I did grow up in one though).

Me and the wife just got a baby and we were like "oh my god I am so glad I live walking distance to everything we need, including daycare and pediatrician". To be fair that is not the average where we live either, but kids are already taking themselves to places around 6 years old and most after-school activities are around the school.

In fact we were complaining that now that we have so little time available it is just so boring to _only_ be 3-5 blocks around our home and never go anywhere else. My wife sometimes just take the bus to go anywhere else to walk the baby rather than just doing it around our area.

Re: Nobody understands the point of hybrid cars [video]

#122

Post by deckar01 »

bee_rider wrote: post #30
chem83 wrote: post #18

I always thought the problem with hybrids was the complexity of the drive train, but this video is challenging that notion. It argues that the hybrid pack (minus the battery, perhaps?) is more compact and simpler than a manual gearbox, even. It consists of two electric motors and a planetary gear set, which is seemingly simpler than clutch packs, gear sets and belts of regular transmissions, including CVTs. Time code…

On a completely tangential note, has anyone ever tried a hybrid that was like a diesel-electric train? The engine just charges the battery. IIRC it can be much simpler, no need for gearing at all, the engine just runs at a constant speed and the battery handles delivering variable amounts of power.

Ford is replacing their Lightning EV with an “EREV” gas generator.

Re: Nobody understands the point of hybrid cars [video]

#123

Post by vkou »

cbdevidal wrote: post #104

My whole draw to hybrids is low overall cost and longevity. Just two days ago I bought my son a 2007 Prius with 194k miles for $6k; and three weeks ago, a 2008 with 225k miles for my sister for $2.5k. Both should last another 200k if they don’t abuse them. And if gas goes over $6 I’m buying one for myself, too. I sleep in my car twice a week for work, and being able to run the AC on hot Florida nights will be the che…

My 2010 Prius has out of the blue started burning oil last year, like it's going out of style.

It's a common problem with them. But otherwise, it's a very reliable car.

Re: Nobody understands the point of hybrid cars [video]

#124

Post by jeffbee »

asa400 wrote: post #120
jeffbee wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a fair assumption that doesn't prove itself in practice. In practice, a Prius engine lasts forever. Someone will jump in to complain about some anecdotal failure but the fleet statistics are strong. They even outlast other non-hybrid Toyotas. There are a lot of reasons for this but a significant one is the lack of belt-driven accessories, lack of friction clutches, and ability to avoid high-stress operation be…

This is exactly correct, and I can't count how many times I've had to have this argument, thank you for pointing it out. My hybrid (not a Prius, actually) doesn't have a dedicated starter motor, the traction motor starts the ICE engine. The climate control is electric and powered by the hybrid battery (with the added benefit of being able to run the A/C while the ICE engine is off). The power steering is electric so…

I could go on and on about the enhanced reliability features of my hybrid. One reason why it will last forever is that when the engine needs to start, the ECU grabs the crankshaft with the MGU and spins it up to 1000 RPM, and doesn't deliver fuel until oil pressure is verified. The cam phaser also keeps the valves wide open so there's little compression while starting. And, unlike other ICE engines that are forced to operate at certain speeds depending on what the car is doing, the ECU in my hybrid can detect oil dilution and simply fix it.

Re: Nobody understands the point of hybrid cars [video]

#125

Post by pbmonster »

everfrustrated wrote: post #111

My main takeaway from the video is just how terrible Toyota was at marketing this.

I mean, does it really matter?

The Prius (and all subsequent Synergy Drive cars) were widely known - from the very beginning - to be extremely fuel efficient ICE cars. As time went on, they universally became known to be both fuel efficient and also absolutely bomb proof.

Both of those things surprised basically no-one, since the direct successors (Camry, Corolla, 4Runner, Tacoma, Hilux) were also already known for being fuel efficient and reliable cars.

The only people who really care about why and how exactly they got so fuel efficient and reliable are engineering nerds - and many of those already knew, the planetary gear set + atkinson cycle engine are a pretty legendary design. They hit it out of the park on the first try, after all.

And as this video shows, explaining the why and how to non-engineering nerds takes a good part of an hour anyway. How do you do marketing with that?

Re: Nobody understands the point of hybrid cars [video]

#126

Post by Spartan-S63 »

I now have a hybrid Toyota truck (Tacoma i-Force MAX), so it's not like the classical EV/BEV powertrain, from my understanding. Instead, the motor is between the engine and the transmission, so it gives an initial kick of torque before the engine starts or provides sufficient power.

It's interesting that Toyota has two hybrid models: one for efficiency and one for low-end torque performance.

Re: Nobody understands the point of hybrid cars [video]

#127

Post by saltcured »

caminanteblanco wrote: post #61
tedggh wrote: post #50

I have all three ICE, EV and hybrid at home. I was hesitant at first when getting the EV because we already had the hybrid, but we needed a second SUV to carry kids. After two years with the EV it became evident to me the hybrid doesn’t make sense. It has some of the gas savings of an EV but you still deal with the inconvenience of maintaining a ICE. My EV has received zero maintenance other than cleaning the cameras…

I think the problem a lot of non-Toyota manufacturers have run into is trying to have it both ways, like you said. For better or worse (I say better), the Prius really committed to hybrid as its own form. Plenty of hybrids really are an electric motor and a ICE tacked together, and with that system, you're going to hit twice (at least) the problems of either one. The thing I appreciate about the Toyota power-split de…

I think the biggest reduction is that it essentially replaces the conventional transmission with the hybrid unit. (Planetary gear set and motor-generators.)

It drives like a CVT, but it is not a CVT in the sense people know as far as maintenance and reliability issues. It is just a "differential" and electric motor balancing out the ICE engine output to get a desired output drive effect.

Re: Nobody understands the point of hybrid cars [video]

#128

Post by bluesquared »

MegaDeKay wrote: post #101
tedggh wrote: post #50

I have all three ICE, EV and hybrid at home. I was hesitant at first when getting the EV because we already had the hybrid, but we needed a second SUV to carry kids. After two years with the EV it became evident to me the hybrid doesn’t make sense. It has some of the gas savings of an EV but you still deal with the inconvenience of maintaining a ICE. My EV has received zero maintenance other than cleaning the cameras…

Another consideration is your local climate. It can get down to -40C here. Both ICE and EVs pay a range penalty in those conditions, but it compounds the problem with charging station density that EVs have + the time it takes to charge. And at least with an ICE, all that engine heat can be put to good use trying to keep the interior warm.

The cold problems are not as overblown as most people who live outside of these environments think. Yes, for most commutes the reduction in winter (sub-freezing temperature) range when home-based charging is available is not significant.

For my anecdote, my (occasional) commute distance is enough that I need to change my driving habits to have enough range/safety margin to make it back home during this cold period. In these conditions, my EV gets roughly 175 miles of range while driving 60-65 MPH with some (resistive) cabin heating. This makes my 150-mile roundtrip not exactly an afterthought like it is during the summer when I have 240-mile+ range ignoring the speed limit. If I couldn't fully recharge at home every night, preheat the car (even garaged it's still bitter cold)

Statistically maybe these edge cases are all irrelevant... But it is a hard limit on what you can and can't do with an EV that ICE vehicle users do not have to ever think about. Maybe once we start getting commonly-available and affordable EVs that come standard with ICE-like range - 300 miles all-season at the minimum - this will change.

Re: Nobody understands the point of hybrid cars [video]

#129

Post by don_esteban »

the_gastropod wrote: post #116
MegaDeKay wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another consideration is your local climate. It can get down to -40C here. Both ICE and EVs pay a range penalty in those conditions, but it compounds the problem with charging station density that EVs have + the time it takes to charge. And at least with an ICE, all that engine heat can be put to good use trying to keep the interior warm.

These problems are (imo) vastly overblown for the way most people drive. The only time the cold temperature reduced range / reduced charge speed are relevant is for long road trips where you’re driving > ~200mi at once. Otherwise, you just charge up at home overnight and easily recoup any normal driving range you used during the day, regardless of the temperature. Norwegians have apparently figured this out. Despite…

Norway is not damn cold. It sits next to a warm, Gulf-stream ocean. Rarely gets much (Finland, that's another thing.

Re: Nobody understands the point of hybrid cars [video]

#130

Post by saltcured »

tedggh wrote: post #50

I have all three ICE, EV and hybrid at home. I was hesitant at first when getting the EV because we already had the hybrid, but we needed a second SUV to carry kids. After two years with the EV it became evident to me the hybrid doesn’t make sense. It has some of the gas savings of an EV but you still deal with the inconvenience of maintaining a ICE. My EV has received zero maintenance other than cleaning the cameras…

Just to qualify "log daily commutes", hybrid is really most beneficial, compared to ICE, for "city" driving. Long in duration with lots of speed changes and stopping, rather than as a highway cruise.

If you include the other efficiency tweaks like aerodynamics, wheel choices, etc., then an ICE car can also do very well in those highway conditions. But, the optimized or "right-sized" ICE for highway cruising may feel underpowered in some conditions. The hybrid also helps here, much like a turbocharger, by boosting power output temporarily to mitigate this.

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