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The main thing about P2P meth is that there's so much of it (2021)

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Re: The main thing about P2P meth is that there's so much of it (2021)

#181

Post by keepamovin »

cyberax wrote: post #67
keepamovin wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, policy wise I appreciate you getting into the nuance, but I feel like you take the argument to polar extremes (with an attitude of confident, final certainty), when the expected outcome is across the middle. This smells more like ideology than practicality. > These discussions always end up … Before your comment i wouldn’t say anyone is lacking curiosity here. Tho your comment about fixing into a stereotype, seem…

> On the toxicity side, do you have any studies to cite? I wasn’t aware of toxicity, but it’s plausible. A typical therapeutic dose of amphetamines is around 20mg, topping at around 60mg for serious narcolepsy. Recreational doses can go up to around 1000mg for long-term users with 360mg as the median: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/40385390/ That's the area of crazy toxic side effects just from vasoconstriction. Nev…

Okay, I remember seeing a documentary where people were doing lines of methampheatmine. And typically people would do 2 to 3 lines and be up all night. I would consider a line a "small amount".

If I could go to a regulated dispensary and do a line of methamphetamine I think I'd try it. I don't think it would be neurotoxic, but I'd be very interested to know data that supports that, obviously! If you have, please show.

The doses you are describing I think fall outside responsible recreational use and into other categories - that sound more like poisoning / overdose.

A problem of criminalization is that society seems to tend to bucket all illegal drugs into a single category of usage misrepresented by the worst doses. It is possible for people to use these substances responsibly. And with assistance on purity, and regulated access, I believe the chances are high.

The regime I am proposing should even make it easier to deal with the % of people who bucket into overdoese/poison territory.

I'm not sure how much 1 line contains, but to me it seems as if it would be 50mg?

Re: The main thing about P2P meth is that there's so much of it (2021)

#182

Post by keepamovin »

nswango wrote: post #133
keepamovin wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t take the article as authoritative. It’s argument against contamination is not strong. It doesn’t present any real evidence for it. You can elaborate if you like

The original Atlantic article, which this one is trying to refute, also doesn't present any evidence for the theory that 'new meth' has significant different effects on health. After a fact dump about different types of meth, it's literally a collection of anecdotal evidence from meth users going "for the first 5 years of smoking weekly, I had a great time partying in a relaxed way with my best buds, now that I've lo…

I really appreciate your take. I think it is correct and reads as accurate. Clearly a batch problem. Also, I'm glad that the read from someone who's been in the trenches and on the ground about this issue is alignment with mine. Thanks for sharing on this thread

Re: The main thing about P2P meth is that there's so much of it (2021)

#183

Post by keepamovin »

jazzyjackson wrote: post #61
keepamovin wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My view of a lot of the opioid crisis stuff aside from physical pain is psychological trauma - people self medicating as an alternative to doing the work. That’s why I think the psychoactive legislation that’s introduced recently about psychedelics is so important because those things can rapidly accelerate processing and healing psychological trauma. My view, is if this was done 20 - 30 years ago there wouldn’t be s…

Sorry what? What does ego death have to do with healing a back injury?

I did say aside from physical ailments

Re: The main thing about P2P meth is that there's so much of it (2021)

#184

Post by keepamovin »

throwaway27448 wrote: post #32
Aurornis wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The government should just regulate it, control purity and production and let people access small amounts for recreation/performance. The phrase “small amount” is doing a lot of heavy lifting in this statement. The government does regulate and control amphetamine and methamphetamine (Desoxyn) as prescription drugs. The former is not all that hard to access. For a while it was as easy as signing up for a service thr…

Having to go through the medical system is why there's such a thriving black market. How do you propose changing things that this isn't the case?

Well, in my proposal it would depend on case by case for each chemical, but basically follow a dispensary model with regulations and controlled access (ID swipe, nationally tracked, time-windows quotas), proportional to the dangers of over-use of the chemical.

For instance, I could purchase psilocybin/mescaline/ibogaine treatment at a dispensary (obviously imagining a therapeutic commoditized future). I could also purchase mescaline/psilocybin/salvia recreationally. Some recreational access may be "psych tested", or at least "need to pass the monitored orientation session" using special assays to ensure people could handle a "solo flight".

For the chem in question, it really is a more basic case I think of purity/quality/amount/regulation. I could walk into a dispensary and do a 50mg (is that correct?) line instead of a hit of espresso. Would I do this? I'd like to try, at least. The fact that I could, and know it was high quality and safe would be very cool.

I'm probably a bit weird/sci-fi/psychedelic utopian but I love the idea of a menagerie of dispensaries dealing out all kinds of cool, useful and exploratory chemicals safely. There could even be a chain of PiHKaL/TIHKAL outlets. Perhaps affectionately named "Shulgin's Drug Store". lol :)

Re: The main thing about P2P meth is that there's so much of it (2021)

#185

Post by justonceokay »

idxoutofbounds wrote: post #109

> Ephedrine meth was like a party drug. […] You could normally kind of more or less hang onto your life. You had a house, you had a job. […] P2P meth was nothing like that. It was a very sinister drug. It brought you inside. You didn’t want to be around other people. You wanted to just kind of be alone with whatever bizarre thoughts your mind was now cooking up, and conspiracies. That sounds a lot like the progressio…

In the gay community it brings groups of guys into a mutual spiral of addiction and weirdly long sexual practices. They feel like they’re having the best time at first until they are isolated and completely chemically addicted. I’ve lost a friend and many acquaintances this way.

All it takes is one party where your friends “molly” is not so pure and you’re high for 18 hours straight. “Let’s do that again next week” turns into “all weekend” turns into “all the time”

Re: The main thing about P2P meth is that there's so much of it (2021)

#186

Post by fwipsy »

jrflowers wrote: post #21
fwipsy wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. "Go read this book" ain't it.

“I don’t feel like reading a book” isn’t a counter argument. That’s just a tidbit about how your day is going

I've not refuted anything, but I still don't believe it. I'm just informing them of that.

Re: The main thing about P2P meth is that there's so much of it (2021)

#187

Post by justonceokay »

himata4113 wrote: post #155

Happy to see that meth is becoming more affortable, maybe inflation isn't so bad after all if we consider all the things we have access to and that have come down in price since few decades ago. /s

Inflation getting you down? Combat it with meth, so you can Cram More Time into Each Second (TM).

Re: The main thing about P2P meth is that there's so much of it (2021)

#188

Post by CuriouslyC »

cyberpunk wrote: post #139
fc417fc802 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The world is obviously better of without drugs, You slip such a confident assertion in there seemingly without justification. Do you think (for example) that the world would be better off without alcohol? I certainly don't. Everything has downsides; that doesn't on its own justify eliminating it. It's analogous to the adage that the most secure computer is the one encased in a block of cement so as to render it ent…

The world would unambiguously be better off without alcohol.

Tell me you have/had an alcoholic parent without telling me.

Re: The main thing about P2P meth is that there's so much of it (2021)

#189

Post by hash872 »

lukan wrote: post #98
hash872 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The government should just regulate it, control purity and production and let people access small amounts for recreation/performance Famously, the US spent about 15-20 years attempting this with opioids. They were widely available to people via a pseudo-medical process, or via secondhand dealing. Opioids were/are manufactured by regulated, publicly traded companies with inspectors who controlled purity and productio…

"the Wiki page for the opioid crisis is quite clear that at least 50% of all deaths were due to perfectly legal, regulated opioids" Are you talking about this page? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opioid_epidemic Could you then be more clear where exactly your claim came from? I did not find it, but rather this: "According to medical professionals, supervised injection sites are effective in reducing overdose deaths an…

There's a US-specific one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opioid_epidemic_in_the_United_...

"From 1999 to 2020, nearly 841,000 people died from drug overdoses,[7] with prescription and illicit opioids responsible for 500,000 of those deaths"

Here's a chart showing overdose deaths from all drugs in the US- yes there's definitely a large spike from 'synthetic opioids' at the end there that's probably all illegal fentanyl. But notice the blue line for 'prescription drugs' was very very steady for the entire length of the chart. That's an enormous number of deaths from completely legal, regulated drugs!

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fa/US_timel...

Re: The main thing about P2P meth is that there's so much of it (2021)

#190

Post by tomjen3 »

fc417fc802 wrote: post #118
tomjen3 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its meaningless to decriminalize using it, since it does not give big benefit of replacing narco terrorists producers with pure, controlled stuff from legal pharma companies. The world is obviously better of without drugs, but given that is not going to happen, the question to decide is: is the world better of with drugs from legal pharmacutical companies, or (somewhat) restricted access to drugs through an illegal s…

> The world is obviously better of without drugs, You slip such a confident assertion in there seemingly without justification. Do you think (for example) that the world would be better off without alcohol? I certainly don't. Everything has downsides; that doesn't on its own justify eliminating it. It's analogous to the adage that the most secure computer is the one encased in a block of cement so as to render it ent…

I believe the world would be better of without alcohol for consumption, yes.

The only real benefits are not being the one outside the group, and the downsides include liver damage, social damage, massively higher risk for falling, drunk driving,...

More to the point, alcohol would never be permitted if it was invented today. Marijuana might.

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