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The main thing about P2P meth is that there's so much of it (2021)

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Re: The main thing about P2P meth is that there's so much of it (2021)

#91

Post by loeg »

robotbikes wrote: post #41

And I thought for a second they were talking about peer to peer meth but no that's what the DEA shut down by tightly controlling pseudoephedrine, where before meth using meth makers were making meth and distributing it. It certainly seems like prohibition is just making things worse and making it more lucrative for the least ethical of black market producers. Similar situation with fentanyl when compared to previous…

> that's what the DEA shut down by tightly controlling pseudoephedrine, where before meth using meth makers were making meth and distributing it.

Phosphorus-ephedrine meth, aka shake-and-bake.

> It certainly seems like prohibition is just making things worse and making it more lucrative for the least ethical of black market producers.

I don't think P2P meth is any worse than what came before it. Prohibition is making things somewhat worse here for legal access to pseudoephedrine, though.

Re: The main thing about P2P meth is that there's so much of it (2021)

#92

Post by vintermann »

KarlKode wrote: post #40
hash872 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The government should just regulate it, control purity and production and let people access small amounts for recreation/performance Famously, the US spent about 15-20 years attempting this with opioids. They were widely available to people via a pseudo-medical process, or via secondhand dealing. Opioids were/are manufactured by regulated, publicly traded companies with inspectors who controlled purity and productio…

I think a astronomically better example would be programs in the Netherlands, Denmark or Switzerland, where people heavily addicted to heroine can get into programs that will provide them with pharmaceutical heroine. Still prescribed by doctors (although specialized ones), but not just for pulling a wisdom tooth with huge margins for the Sacklers...

A problem LAR programs have had since the start is that although methadone is less attractive as a drug than heroin, it's still attractive, and basically the only way to figure out how much a heroin addict needs is to ask them. Leading to users asking for extra, selling the excess (to users who were not in the LAR program) and buying other drugs with the profits. For some years, more people died from methadone overdose in Norway than heroin.

Sure, you could demand injection on site to reduce this problem. But that just makes the program less appealing. You could also just hand out the users' drug of choice directly (heroin) rather than the less harmful substitute, but at some point that starts counting as physician-assisted suicide, really.

Re: The main thing about P2P meth is that there's so much of it (2021)

#93

Post by [deleted] »

Aurornis wrote: post #36
SV_BubbleTime wrote: post #3

Fantastic write up. I think the biggest takeaway for me is just how insanely ineffective banning pseudoephedrine over the counter was. Price went down, usage went up overdose went up, seizures went up, the production just changed quickly and there wasn’t even a blip. Billions of uses of bullshit decongestant products that didn’t work at all… and to get the good stuff you still need to buy it from behind the counter a…

> banning pseudoephedrine over the counter was. In many states it wasn’t banned. It just moved behind the counter and you could only by a limited amount per month. Which was actually fantastically good for those of us who actually need it, because this made it available again instead of the empty shelves.

[deleted]

Re: The main thing about P2P meth is that there's so much of it (2021)

#94

Post by vintermann »

hash872 wrote: post #59
idiotsecant wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your opioid comparison is wildly apples to oranges. They were marketed and sold to consumers as safe, much more effective, and dramatically less addictive than it actually was. An industrial addiction machine ignored regulatory safeguards, built a 'pay for play' rewards structure to incentivize prescriptions, and a zillion other cartoonishly evil things . There is a world of difference between something like that and…

>Those are exactly the people you want to have access to it Yes but that's different from 'every random person can buy some meth at 7-11 or the government store' though. I'm fine with a controlled program for registered, hardcore addicts- the 2% who do 50% of the drugs or what have you. >The problem was not in fact opioids. It was the profit structure behind the distribution network. Remove that and the bulk of the p…

> I mean, states & countries that have completely state-run liquor stores still have alcoholism and serious alcohol problems though

They have less of it. Reducing access and increasing price reduces consumption, as any economist would expect.

The main problem with government monopolies of this sort is that they usually lack democratic legitimacy (i.e. would be voted away in a single issue vote) are under constant PR attack from people who profit from the regulated product. Leading to concessions such as the Norwegian monopoly being run as a for-profit corporation.

> If 'removing the profit structure' worked magically, more countries would do it.

No they wouldn't, for the obvious reason: those who profit from it have a voice, and are better organized than the ones who suffer from it (many who are addicts and want easy access anyway).

Re: The main thing about P2P meth is that there's so much of it (2021)

#95

Post by otherme123 »

ulrikrasmussen wrote: post #72
hash872 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Those are exactly the people you want to have access to it Yes but that's different from 'every random person can buy some meth at 7-11 or the government store' though. I'm fine with a controlled program for registered, hardcore addicts- the 2% who do 50% of the drugs or what have you. >The problem was not in fact opioids. It was the profit structure behind the distribution network. Remove that and the bulk of the p…

All Scandinavian countries except Denmark have some form of state-run monopoly on the sale of harder alcohol, and of these countries, Denmark is the country where people drink the most, in particular among the youth. It is disingenuous to claim that something doesn't work if it doesn't eliminate it completely. It is pretty well recognized that tight regulation of alcohol sales and marketing together with taxation hel…

Lets not forget that in the US not only opioids get legalized, but they were given to people as a substitute for aspirins. And then retired without mercy. Did you get addicted? Well, you are on your own now, go get some fentanyl under a bridge.

I live in Spain. Alcohol is not tighty regulated here, and is cheap if we compare with nordic countries. But we, overall, have a culture of knowing how to drink, low proof drinks and in low quantities. The worst drinkers here are tourists from northern countries that binge on high grade alcohol because it is cheap. I had never seen someone chugging a liter of beer like it is water, or do that thing with a can of beer where you force the whole can, or that other thing with the funnel and a tube, like you were in a hurry to get drunk. You just drink a beer whenever you want, at slow pace. Spain, overall, consumes a lot of alcohol, but the consumption is so spread among the population that you rarely see adults drunk.

Our neighbor in the south, Morocco, allows for marihuana consumption and selling, and they have way less problems with it than any european country. But they have alcohol tightly forbidden, and it is a big problem there.

I went to Finland, and there were ships going from Finland to Estonia, carrying people just to buy cheaper alcohol there. They went back to Helsinki with shopping bags full of vodka. Makes you wonder how does it look Tallin in drinking statistics. I bet something similar is going on between Sweden and Denmark or Germany, whatever trip is shorter and cheaper.

The point is that a culture of taking drugs needs time to develop.

Re: The main thing about P2P meth is that there's so much of it (2021)

#96

Post by ulrikrasmussen »

bbor wrote: post #86
zephen wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the only thing society is really good at with regards to drugs is prohibition. Really? Seems to me that, in general, we suck at it.

It does feel like that sometimes, but alcohol use plummeted during US prohibition.

Initially, yes. But as illicit supply chains were established, usage crept back up. It didn't go all the way up to pre-prohibition usage, but it got pretty close. Just look at the graph in Figure 1 in this article: https://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/pa157.pdf

Re: The main thing about P2P meth is that there's so much of it (2021)

#97

Post by bityard »

33MHz-i486 wrote: post #89

the problems with the meth epidemic are 3 fold. two problems are intrinsic to meth and one is a matter of public policy. 1) meth is highly addictive and there is no pharmacological intervention for that addiction. there is no clinically effective therapeutic treatment for it either 2) meth is neurodegenerative. heavy users end up with a permanent disability 3) at some point around 2010 a bunch of cities decided it wa…

Small towns in North America are are being decimated by meth. The drug dealers move in because there are no drug task forces, just underfunded and ill-equipped sheriffs and local police.

My wife and I live in the suburbs now but grew up in a very rural community. Last year we went to a wedding there. It was shocking how many people under the age of 50 were missing half their teeth.

Re: The main thing about P2P meth is that there's so much of it (2021)

#98

Post by lukan »

hash872 wrote: post #34
keepamovin wrote: post #10

The ephedrine (or pseudoephedrine) synthesis is a one step using phosphorus/iodine reduction directly to methamphetamine. It’s simple and clean in that only an acid base extraction is required, and only one set of NP solvents. All these others syntheses with multiple steps up the chances of weird toxic solvents or contaminants creeping in. I think it’s a contaminant issue that’s exacerbated by the drug use. The gover…

>The government should just regulate it, control purity and production and let people access small amounts for recreation/performance Famously, the US spent about 15-20 years attempting this with opioids. They were widely available to people via a pseudo-medical process, or via secondhand dealing. Opioids were/are manufactured by regulated, publicly traded companies with inspectors who controlled purity and productio…

"the Wiki page for the opioid crisis is quite clear that at least 50% of all deaths were due to perfectly legal, regulated opioids"

Are you talking about this page?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opioid_epidemic

Could you then be more clear where exactly your claim came from? I did not find it, but rather this:

"According to medical professionals, supervised injection sites are effective in reducing overdose deaths and the transmission of infectious diseases."

Re: The main thing about P2P meth is that there's so much of it (2021)

#99

Post by ulrikrasmussen »

otherme123 wrote: post #95
ulrikrasmussen wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All Scandinavian countries except Denmark have some form of state-run monopoly on the sale of harder alcohol, and of these countries, Denmark is the country where people drink the most, in particular among the youth. It is disingenuous to claim that something doesn't work if it doesn't eliminate it completely. It is pretty well recognized that tight regulation of alcohol sales and marketing together with taxation hel…

Lets not forget that in the US not only opioids get legalized, but they were given to people as a substitute for aspirins. And then retired without mercy. Did you get addicted? Well, you are on your own now, go get some fentanyl under a bridge. I live in Spain. Alcohol is not tighty regulated here, and is cheap if we compare with nordic countries. But we, overall, have a culture of knowing how to drink, low proof dri…

Yes, the swedes take the ferry to Denmark and the danes take the car over the border to Germany.

There has also been a movement to change the culture of drinking in Denmark, and the consumption has generally been going down, although it still remains high among youth. This also goes to show that there are many complex factors at play and that legal status alone cannot explain consumption patterns.

I do believe that prohibition makes it a lot harder to influence the culture around consumption compared to a legalized and regulated market.

Re: The main thing about P2P meth is that there's so much of it (2021)

#100

Post by jona-f »

keepamovin wrote: post #10

The ephedrine (or pseudoephedrine) synthesis is a one step using phosphorus/iodine reduction directly to methamphetamine. It’s simple and clean in that only an acid base extraction is required, and only one set of NP solvents. All these others syntheses with multiple steps up the chances of weird toxic solvents or contaminants creeping in. I think it’s a contaminant issue that’s exacerbated by the drug use. The gover…

It's a pretty bad drug, I can see only disadvantages over plain amphetamine.

If amphetamine isn't strong enough, you already have a serious problem.

I'm not saying that criminalization is the right way, just that I don't see a responsible recreational/performance use for methamphetamine. It's too strong and too toxic. The regulation should permit only use for addiction management imho.

Also, the long history is not exactly in its favor, given how the Nazis extensively used it and Hitler was probably a serious meth-junkie.

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