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Kraftwerk's radical 1976 track

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Re: Kraftwerk's radical 1976 track

#111

Post by RugnirViking »

Neil44 wrote: post #108
boshomi wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuclear power has been killed off by economic forces; there’s no turning back. Solar and wind power generate cheap electricity in abundance, and midday electricity prices in Europe regularly dip into negative territory (as low as minus €500 (sic!) on May 1!). Modern grids do not require high-risk investments in ultra-inert baseload power that ultimately fails to find a market; instead, they require low-risk investmen…

Solar and wind are still heavily subsidized are they not? If they're so economically amazing why are they subsidized?

because they're really important? both for the planet but also for strategic energy independance (no gas from russia, no oil from hormuz or america, light from the sun and wind from the air is all thats needed)

Re: Kraftwerk's radical 1976 track

#112

Post by AdamN »

Qdulf wrote: post #56
cluckindan wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More like the robot thing to do. Anti-nuclear sentiment in Germany was entirely manufactured; it was the product of Gerhard Schröder and similar robots who enriched themselves on Russian oil and gas. Ironically, it is also where the so-called Green Party began.

This is historical revisionism. Anti-nuclear sentiment in Germany is rooted in the peace movement and environmentalism, with the majority of public discourse starting in the 1970s. The debate has always been about what to do with the waste. Our government misrepresented the "Asse" as a solved solution for a final repository, even though it was always only a test repository for low and intermediate-level radioactive w…

It's kind of all of the above. State and non-state actors have leveraged pretty much every movement there is to their own ends: civil rights, anti-nuclear, pro-nuclear, anti-Iranian government sentiment, pro-Iranian government sentiment, even jazz tours in Europe which were assisted by US intelligence orgs in the 20th century.

It's not a 'bad' thing and doesn't say alot about the core movements - it just is what it is.

Re: Kraftwerk's radical 1976 track

#113

Post by lionkor »

pjmlp wrote: post #99
lionkor wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brown coal power kills that many people in a good year directly, not mentioning the long term health effects of exposure to brown coal smoke (even if filtered).

Yeah people are sniffing lines of coal. /s

Lol, but really coal power plants are more dangerous work environments, coal mining as well, and then of course there's the pollution (which, opposed to nuclear, isn't bottled up and stored, and instead just exhausted).

Re: Kraftwerk's radical 1976 track

#114

Post by usrusr »

Qdulf wrote: post #56
cluckindan wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More like the robot thing to do. Anti-nuclear sentiment in Germany was entirely manufactured; it was the product of Gerhard Schröder and similar robots who enriched themselves on Russian oil and gas. Ironically, it is also where the so-called Green Party began.

This is historical revisionism. Anti-nuclear sentiment in Germany is rooted in the peace movement and environmentalism, with the majority of public discourse starting in the 1970s. The debate has always been about what to do with the waste. Our government misrepresented the "Asse" as a solved solution for a final repository, even though it was always only a test repository for low and intermediate-level radioactive w…

We don't know what to what fraction that peace movement ran on being propped up by KGB. Those things are not mutually exclusive, genuine protest and getting propped up by a foreign power just for destabilization and giggles.

Just like that Red Army Faction group whose name in hindsight was much closer to the truth than anyone really assumed at the time. At least at some point it clearly was a KGB operation (visits to a certain Dresden office are documented, and yes, guess who was also stationed in Dresden at the time), likely not from the start but quickly co-opted. KGB, as in the service that was built on the experience of how Germany solved their eastern front in WWI through organizing passage from Zurich for a certain dissident.

Yes, those movements were genuine. But they were also directed to some extent. The fictional Tischbier character in Deutschland 83 comes somewhat close to illustrating that ambiguity.

Re: Kraftwerk's radical 1976 track

#115

Post by the_mitsuhiko »

RobotToaster wrote: post #86
pjmlp wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just saw the Fukushima documentary over the weekend, no thanks.

Fukushima only killed one person https://ourworldindata.org/what-was-the-death-toll-from-cher...

That's great, but it displaced more than 150.000 people permanently.

Re: Kraftwerk's radical 1976 track

#116

Post by usrusr »

pjmlp wrote: post #81
cluckindan wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More like the robot thing to do. Anti-nuclear sentiment in Germany was entirely manufactured; it was the product of Gerhard Schröder and similar robots who enriched themselves on Russian oil and gas. Ironically, it is also where the so-called Green Party began.

Not at all, we look into Fukushima and Chernobyl as examples of what actual happens when things don't go as the advocates sell it. And naturally the radio waste is fine as long as we store it into other countries.

Fukushima hit hard in (West) Germany: Chernobyl was mostly explained away with "because Soviet", it wasn't that hard to convince people that much safer nuclear was possible. But Japan, of all countries, not being able to safely run a reactor? The country of trains running on time and of Toyotas making domestic cars look laughably unreliable in ADAC statistics?

Re: Kraftwerk's radical 1976 track

#117

Post by [deleted] »

pjmlp wrote: post #87
RobotToaster wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fukushima only killed one person https://ourworldindata.org/what-was-the-death-toll-from-cher...

"No one died directly from the disaster. However, 40 to 50 people were injured as a result of physical injury from the blast, or radiation burns." Selective view of the victims?

[deleted]

Re: Kraftwerk's radical 1976 track

#118

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

happymellon wrote: post #70
secretsatan wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is undeniably a middle class anti vax wellness leftist movement whether it was originally conservative or not, unfortunately.

> wellness leftist movement Hang on, are we talking about liberal or leftist now? Because a lot of these hoax "wellness" movements are conservative. Distrusting science and things you don't understand is a conservative mindset.

And trusting science while distrusting technology you do understand is a leftist mindset.

Re: Kraftwerk's radical 1976 track

#119

Post by noosphr »

boshomi wrote: post #78
ainch wrote: post #11

I love Kraftwerk, but contributing to anti-nuclear sentiment in Germany hasn't been a major success. If only more European countries had followed the French example and developed substantial nuclear fleets.

Nuclear power has been killed off by economic forces; there’s no turning back. Solar and wind power generate cheap electricity in abundance, and midday electricity prices in Europe regularly dip into negative territory (as low as minus €500 (sic!) on May 1!). Modern grids do not require high-risk investments in ultra-inert baseload power that ultimately fails to find a market; instead, they require low-risk investmen…

Nuclear power died 20 years ago for 40 years now.

Meanwhile Chinas 2060 plan for a carbon zero grid with 25% nuclear and 100% over provisioning is right on track.

Re: Kraftwerk's radical 1976 track

#120

Post by [deleted] »

rectang wrote: post #18
msla wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being against nuclear only kept the world on coal longer.

And perhaps meaningfully contributed to a reduction in the quantity of radioactive waste products requiring custodianship on a timescale that humans can barely conceive of let alone commit to or execute responsibly.

[deleted]
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