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EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

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Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#191

Post by SirMaster »

schnitzelstoat wrote: post #62
conception wrote: post #19

This is pretty easy to solve. If you present data by algorithm, you are no longer an impartial common carrier and are liable for the content you present. If the user decides you don’t, ala social media 1.0.

So the user opens the app - what is the first video you show them? How does 'the user decide' from the millions upon millions of videos there are? If the user can search like in Youtube then how do you rank the results? That's also an algorithm. It isn't pretty easy to solve at all.

Don't show any video. Make the user search for what they want to see.

Rank them by best keyword match from their search query, if match is equal, order them newest posted to oldest posted.

Done.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#192

Post by kyledrake »

ambicapter wrote: post #185
kyledrake wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People in here are casually linking social media to cigarettes, a product that kills half its users , and in previous iterations I've seen people compare social media to using heroin. It's completely hysterical. I expect tabloid journalists and grandstanding politicians to do this, it really scares me when HN users that should know better do it.

This sounds like a "depression isn't real" and "if you're addicted, just stop" type of comment.

Depression is real, I'm experiencing it right now reading these comments.

You know what, why don't you go buy a carton of cigarettes and some heroin, and go use that for a few months. Since it's the same thing as looking at a news feed you shouldn't have to worry about addiction because you've already done that and not gotten addicted to it, so you should be fine, right?

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#193

Post by wussboy »

SirMaster wrote: post #184
wackget wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The modern-day cigarette is such a perfect metaphor for social media. A cabal of unfathomably wealthy companies spreading their harmful products across the world; making them as addictive as possible while actively burying the research which proves how harmful they are. I truly hope one day we'll look back on social media and smartphone use the same way we regard smoking.

But if you stop using social media, you don't still have a risk of lung cancer in the future. The effects of social media usage are surely reversible by stopping using it and then some retraining of the brain. The effects of years of smoking are not so reversible in terms of what it does to your body.

I hope you're right but I think you're dead wrong. Social media has not only affected the mental health of millions of people negatively, it has brought about social, political and economic harms that will affect the planet for generations.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#194

Post by xigoi »

Aurornis wrote: post #84
conception wrote: post #19

This is pretty easy to solve. If you present data by algorithm, you are no longer an impartial common carrier and are liable for the content you present. If the user decides you don’t, ala social media 1.0.

> If you present data by algorithm, you are no longer an impartial common carrier and are liable for the content you present Hacker News is a site that presents data by algorithm. Under your definition, Hacker News goes away, too. A more accurate framing would be that they’re going after personalized recommendation algorithms. It’s not obvious that offering a recommendation algorithm would mean that the site is no lo…

> Under your definition, Hacker News goes away, too.

It doesn’t have to go away, just switch to chronological sorting.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#195

Post by irusensei »

schnitzelstoat wrote: post #62
conception wrote: post #19

This is pretty easy to solve. If you present data by algorithm, you are no longer an impartial common carrier and are liable for the content you present. If the user decides you don’t, ala social media 1.0.

So the user opens the app - what is the first video you show them? How does 'the user decide' from the millions upon millions of videos there are? If the user can search like in Youtube then how do you rank the results? That's also an algorithm. It isn't pretty easy to solve at all.

Enumerate by creation time in descending order the unwatched videos posted from the accounts the user follows.

Like social media 1.0.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#196

Post by cyanydeez »

Aurornis wrote: post #156
jrflo wrote: post #118

I heard someone on a podcast call social media algorithms "the modern-day cigarette" and that really resonated with me. These companies know their product is addictive and bad for users, but they keep pushing it anyways. Like cigarettes, it's bad for everyone, not just kids. I made an algorithm blocker for Safari because of that and it's actually crazy how much more pleasant social media is if you don't have recommen…

If you didn’t notice, this comment is an ad for a paid app trying to capitalize on social media anger. I respect the hustle, but this is not a neutral comment on the topic due to the financial interest. There are many free alternative plugins for targeting social media feeds if someone wants to filter these.

If you haven't been on HN, you'd believe this was some aberration as opposed to the norm. This is a YC run forum, so it's pretty normal for comments to contain software advertisment based comments.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#197

Post by naravara »

Aurornis wrote: post #164
naravara wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you assume the recommendation algorithm should be the default? The algorithm is the dangerous thing, THAT should be the opt-in mode not the other way around. IMO they should not only be opt-in, but should actually be required to publicly list the parameters and weights they’re using and allow users to tune those weights.

Sure, if that makes the angry mob happy then let’s make it default. Then every new user can click the button once and be back to the app they expect. > IMO they should not only be opt-in, but should actually be required to publicly list the parameters and weights they’re using and allow users to tune those weights. I wonder how many people here know that many of the popular apps have rolled out finer controls for rec…

No they should have to pick every time whether they want to be in follower mode or discovery mode. Dismissing concerns as “the angry mob” is richly ironic considering the entire objection is that recommendation algorithms seem precisely tuned to foster angry mob dynamics. So yeah it will make the angry mob happy because it will be removing the primary mechanism for inciting angry mobs.

People here know that they have finer controls (which are still not actually that fine and also don’t really make the parameters auditable). The problem is these settings are hidden away in places most people will never look. And also, I stress again, none of this is actually auditable because they treat these as some kind of trade secret special sauce and there’s really no reason society should feel obligated to support or enable this business model.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#198

Post by mrits »

toasty228 wrote: post #141
mrits wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

People stuck in 1940 and not able to imagine new words for new things should not be allowed to discuss these topics online.

"should not be allowed to discuss these topics online."

At least you are consistent

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#199

Post by xigoi »

tmvphil wrote: post #177
throwawayffffas wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"By algorithm" can be easily defined. The easy benchmark to setup can easily be, that any feed that displays the data in a way other than the following is considered an editorial choice and thus the platform is liable as a publisher: 1. In a chronological order, and only filtered based on user selected options. 2. In any other order explicitly selected by the user. An exception can be made to allow filtering out cont…

If the user selects "sort by algorithm" then I don't see how you've changed anything other than the default. I think it's pretty obvious just changing the default won't work.

Changing the default makes a huge difference because 99% of people don’t change settings.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#200

Post by jrflo »

tolerance wrote: post #179
jrflo wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I removed the link, just thought it was relevant to the discussion.

I was going to make a similar accusation as the above but I skimmed your comments and it didn't seem like you were the sort to have ill intent behind bringing it up. Next time you might want to include one of those stuffy "Disclosure" notices.

That's a good idea, thank you for the feedback. I have a hard time finding the line between "advertising" and "sharing something I built" on this site sometimes.
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