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EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

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Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#81

Post by dgellow »

criddell wrote: post #54
anzerarkin wrote: post #22

I don’t think this is only a kids issue. A lot of adults need this too. The addictive apps are very well designed, while most blockers are either too easy to ignore or too annoying to keep using. I built a small iOS blocker because I had the same problem. Making it strict enough to actually work without making people hate it is the main challenge.

On the radio I heard a reporter talking about things China does during school exams. Apparently all schools have exams at the same time and during that period, social media shuts down at night. I forget the exact hours (10pm - 6am maybe). I'm starting to think that would be a great policy in general for everybody. I think they also said AI companies go offline during exam hours, but I may have got that wrong.

I can understand regulating dark/abusive patterns, but at the end of the day I should be allowed to doomscroll at night if I want to

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#82

Post by pessimizer »

stingraycharles wrote: post #25
conception wrote: post #19

This is pretty easy to solve. If you present data by algorithm, you are no longer an impartial common carrier and are liable for the content you present. If the user decides you don’t, ala social media 1.0.

This is one of those things that don’t translate to legal reality very well, as then you have to define “what is an algorithm”. Is adding advertisements an algorithm? Is including likes an algorithm? Is automatically starting the next video after a previous one has finished an algorithm? Is infinite scroll an algorithm? Etc

I don't see a single difficult example here. The answer is "NO." It's strange that you couldn't even find one.

I mean "Is including likes an algorithm?" You might as well ask if having a dog in the video is an algorithm. Any question about "likes" would be if you're manipulating the video selection based on likes, or is the user given a control to manipulate the video selection based on likes. If it's you it's an algorithm. If it's the user, it's a control. If you lie about the likes, then it's an algorithm. If you're transparent about the likes, then it is a control.

The other ones aren't even worth discussing. You might as well ask if having a blue logo is an algorithm, or if Comic Sans is an algorithm. "It's all so complicated!"

-----

edit: that being said, the EU does not care about this issue at all, and has had plenty of mandate and plenty of time to have done something about it if it did. They are also going to say "it's all so complicated." Because their problem is the unpopularity of center-left neolib governments that are just barely holding on with extreme minority support through bureaucratic means because they wrote the regulations. They want to keep what's came for British Labour during the recent council elections from coming for them.

So I guarantee that content will somehow become an "algorithm." The goal is to keep people who don't like them from speaking to each other.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#83

Post by bee_rider »

conception wrote: post #19

This is pretty easy to solve. If you present data by algorithm, you are no longer an impartial common carrier and are liable for the content you present. If the user decides you don’t, ala social media 1.0.

The conversation has iterated a couple times and one point that people (on this site at least) are stuck on is “well however you rank things—latest, most popular—you’ll need to use some kind of algorithm, maybe quicksort.” This isn’t what the general public or politicians mean when they say “an algorithm” but it does make something of a point, what exactly the general public and politicians mean when they say that… it’s a bit ambiguous.

I think the EU has fully digested this point, and is focusing on the “addictive design” phrase instead, for good reason. It makes it obvious that the problem is a bit fuzzy and related to the behaviors induced, not some cut-and-dry algorithmic thing.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#84

Post by Aurornis »

conception wrote: post #19

This is pretty easy to solve. If you present data by algorithm, you are no longer an impartial common carrier and are liable for the content you present. If the user decides you don’t, ala social media 1.0.

> If you present data by algorithm, you are no longer an impartial common carrier and are liable for the content you present

Hacker News is a site that presents data by algorithm. Under your definition, Hacker News goes away, too.

A more accurate framing would be that they’re going after personalized recommendation algorithms. It’s not obvious that offering a recommendation algorithm would mean that the site is no longer an impartial common carrier.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#85

Post by nekusar »

criddell wrote: post #56
kgwxd wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an adult, who despises all those apps, I don't want to grant government the power to make that decision for me.

An an adult, do you also believe seat belt laws are a bad thing?

Yes, I do. Its just another way that cops can pull you over for bullshit charges and revenue enhancement.

I remember in my state, it was initially only a citation that couldnt be pulled over on. Then they flipped that and started pulling over for it. Why? Pure fucking money grab.

Me not wearing a seatbelt means I risk getting splattered. Not you, or anyone else.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#86

Post by PokemonNoGo »

rwmj wrote: post #80
conception wrote: post #19

This is pretty easy to solve. If you present data by algorithm, you are no longer an impartial common carrier and are liable for the content you present. If the user decides you don’t, ala social media 1.0.

You'll need to solve the dark pattern where a new account opens on a blank page with a box saying "Would you like us to suggest what you watch here?"

Why would anyone go to a new platform if they didn't know anyone to follow there? I don't see a problem there. I download TikTok and search for SexyDancingDinosaur I heard was on there and press follow.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#87

Post by jayGlow »

criddell wrote: post #56
kgwxd wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an adult, who despises all those apps, I don't want to grant government the power to make that decision for me.

An an adult, do you also believe seat belt laws are a bad thing?

personally yes, that kind of choice should belong to the individual not the government. besides that though the laws are nonsensical why is a seatbelt required in a car not not in a bus, why are motorcycles even allowed at all?

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#89

Post by dgellow »

modo_mario wrote: post #59
watwut wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imo, both. The more right wing people started to have aggressively anti-EU stance once Vance openly stood on the side of Orban and against EU and democracies in general. And some people see tech companies as worship worthy and trying to restrict them is kind of a blasphemy.

The Vance thing is far too recent and inconsequential across europe? The sentiment precedes all that and mostly stems from the EU being in some ways originally lib left dominated and still being seen as facilitating non-eu migration Regular right wing people (aka not one of the many parties potentially receiving donations) don't tend to love giant webtech companies. Especially since they feel like they're often used…

> don't tend to love giant webtech companie

That’s a bit outdated since musk bought twitter

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#90

Post by [deleted] »

alkonaut wrote: post #69
schnitzelstoat wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the user opens the app - what is the first video you show them? How does 'the user decide' from the millions upon millions of videos there are? If the user can search like in Youtube then how do you rank the results? That's also an algorithm. It isn't pretty easy to solve at all.

In the case of Instagram: You show the videos from the people you follow on instagram, then no more short videos at all. Possibly a search box. If you search on youtube then it can rank any way it wants, just not use e.g. anything from the viewing history. No "related videos" column. That's what YouTube used to be. But YouTube (unlike TikTok) worked well before it had rabbit holes. For TikTok the situation is worse.…

[deleted]
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