Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

cnbc.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

161–170 of 503 posts

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#161

Post by wackget »

kgwxd wrote: post #46
anzerarkin wrote: post #22

I don’t think this is only a kids issue. A lot of adults need this too. The addictive apps are very well designed, while most blockers are either too easy to ignore or too annoying to keep using. I built a small iOS blocker because I had the same problem. Making it strict enough to actually work without making people hate it is the main challenge.

As an adult, who despises all those apps, I don't want to grant government the power to make that decision for me.

You might have the self-awareness and impulse control to stop yourself from getting addicted to these apps, but the majority of the world's population does not.

These giant companies pour millions upon millions of dollars into engineering their services to be as "engaging" (read: addictive) as possible with the specific goal of making users spend more time on them.

Against that, the average person has no chance. The power balance is hugely uneven.

A responsible government which actually cares for its people has a duty to protect them from abuse like that.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#162

Post by walthamstow »

conception wrote: post #19

This is pretty easy to solve. If you present data by algorithm, you are no longer an impartial common carrier and are liable for the content you present. If the user decides you don’t, ala social media 1.0.

Back in my day, they used to be called social networks

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#163

Post by jrflo »

Aurornis wrote: post #156
jrflo wrote: post #118

I heard someone on a podcast call social media algorithms "the modern-day cigarette" and that really resonated with me. These companies know their product is addictive and bad for users, but they keep pushing it anyways. Like cigarettes, it's bad for everyone, not just kids. I made an algorithm blocker for Safari because of that and it's actually crazy how much more pleasant social media is if you don't have recommen…

If you didn’t notice, this comment is an ad for a paid app trying to capitalize on social media anger. I respect the hustle, but this is not a neutral comment on the topic due to the financial interest. There are many free alternative plugins for targeting social media feeds if someone wants to filter these.

I removed the link, just thought it was relevant to the discussion.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#164

Post by Aurornis »

naravara wrote: post #146
Aurornis wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it would be great if all of these apps had an option to function like you propose: Your feed is a simple view of people you’ve chosen to follow. The end. Then all of the people who have trouble with self-control on infinite feeds can enable this mode, and everyone who wants the recommendation algorithm can leave it on. This is the optimal outcome that actually serves everyone’s personal goals for using these…

Why do you assume the recommendation algorithm should be the default? The algorithm is the dangerous thing, THAT should be the opt-in mode not the other way around. IMO they should not only be opt-in, but should actually be required to publicly list the parameters and weights they’re using and allow users to tune those weights.

Sure, if that makes the angry mob happy then let’s make it default. Then every new user can click the button once and be back to the app they expect.

> IMO they should not only be opt-in, but should actually be required to publicly list the parameters and weights they’re using and allow users to tune those weights.

I wonder how many people here know that many of the popular apps have rolled out finer controls for recommendation algorithms so you can do this. On Instagram you can go in and see the topics your recommendation algorithm picked up and modify them manually if you like.

I think the goalposts will just continue to move, though.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#165

Post by walthamstow »

Computer0 wrote: post #65
schnitzelstoat wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the user opens the app - what is the first video you show them? How does 'the user decide' from the millions upon millions of videos there are? If the user can search like in Youtube then how do you rank the results? That's also an algorithm. It isn't pretty easy to solve at all.

I made a new YouTube account recently and my homepage was blank. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37053817

Same thing happens on LinkedIn if you don't follow anybody, the feed is just blank

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#166

Post by NekkoDroid »

hug wrote: post #96
noprocrasted wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what is the first video you show them Whatever is latest posted across their followings/subscriptions?

That’s also an algorithm. An unsophisticated one, but an algorithm nonetheless. You can (and should) argue that such a simple algorithm doesn’t “count”, but fundamentally the exact wording of the grandparent post never works, legislatively. Lawyers will lawyer.

> That’s also an algorithm. An unsophisticated one, but an algorithm nonetheless.

The problem always has been "(personalized) opaque algorithms". Time sorted by followers isn't really opaque, nor is "sorted by likes" or whatever. The problem is always pulling in parameters that a users either has no active control over or are so variable they effectively could be random.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#167

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

bogwog wrote: post #110
lp4v4n wrote: post #58

I don't agree with this. Addictive, unless we're talking about a chemical substance or something like that, is a subjective thing. At some point, books, movies, comics, etc, etc might have been considered addictive. Social networks in general should be banned for underage people, that's the thing. And the social network itself should be liable for verifying the age its users, like a nightclub is liable for people who…

> Addictive, unless we're talking about a chemical substance or something like that, is a subjective thing. What makes you say that? It's well known that the addictive patterns in these apps trigger dopamine the same way drugs do. In a sense, dopamine is the "chemical substance" central to the addiction. Heroine and algorithms are just different ways to get it. https://med.stanford.edu/news/insights/2021/10/addictive…

It's well known, but I'm not convinced it's true. Dopamine levels are measurable by blood test, and some drug abuse studies perform that measurement. Why does the literature on social media and dopamine exclusively talk in vague and general terms, rather than pointing to specific studies where researchers measured dopamine before and after 30 minutes of TikTok scrolling?

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#168

Post by LPisGood »

jrflo wrote: post #118

I heard someone on a podcast call social media algorithms "the modern-day cigarette" and that really resonated with me. These companies know their product is addictive and bad for users, but they keep pushing it anyways. Like cigarettes, it's bad for everyone, not just kids. I made an algorithm blocker for Safari because of that and it's actually crazy how much more pleasant social media is if you don't have recommen…

This is still a recommendation algorithm, just less enjoyable/addicting one. Any process by which you decide what to show to a user is an algorithm .

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#169

Post by SiempreViernes »

shevy-java wrote: post #139
jrflo wrote: post #118

I heard someone on a podcast call social media algorithms "the modern-day cigarette" and that really resonated with me. These companies know their product is addictive and bad for users, but they keep pushing it anyways. Like cigarettes, it's bad for everyone, not just kids. I made an algorithm blocker for Safari because of that and it's actually crazy how much more pleasant social media is if you don't have recommen…

That rationale never convinced me. Smoking has definite physiological effects. Molecules bind to receptors or neurons and initiate cascades/responses. I don't see this with user interface in a browser at all. IF you wish to reason for that, why are regular ads allowed? They piss me off. Why do I have to see them? They cause my brain an addiction to want to buy crappy products. So why is there no ban here? Let's face…

Already Hippocrates was linking the mind to the physical brain, and if you've never felt a physical reaction from looking at the fairer sex I feel bad for you son, yet if you got ninety-nine problems at least sex ain't one.

It's just so tedious to see this "information cannot harm anyone" theory in a context where a huge fraction of the people spend their entire day jobs tying to make phishing less effective.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#170

Post by bogwog »

Aurornis wrote: post #131
bogwog wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Addictive, unless we're talking about a chemical substance or something like that, is a subjective thing. What makes you say that? It's well known that the addictive patterns in these apps trigger dopamine the same way drugs do. In a sense, dopamine is the "chemical substance" central to the addiction. Heroine and algorithms are just different ways to get it. https://med.stanford.edu/news/insights/2021/10/addictive…

Everything you do “triggers dopamine”. Reading HN triggers dopamine. Eating breakfast triggers dopamine. Dopamine is also important for movement and many other things. This is a lame reduction of brain chemistry that has been used to push agendas. Dopamine is not equivalent do addiction.

> calls it a lame reduction of brain chemistry

> posts a lame reduction of the argument

Post reply on HN