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Poland is now among the 20 largest economies

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Re: Poland is now among the 20 largest economies

#661

Post by mejutoco »

rayiner wrote: post #624
somenameforme wrote: post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious what this means in real terms from the perspective of a Pole. GDP/capita is often a relatively useless metric in modern times. For instance Ireland has one of the highest GDP/capitas in the world -- around 50% higher than the US. But that's because of economic games with their working as a tax haven to enable corporations to avoid paying taxes to their home countries. It doesn't translate to anything for…

> GDP/capita is often a relatively useless metric in modern times. "Often" is the wrong modifier. GDP/capita aligns very closely with material standard of living for the median person. If you look at the GDP/capita growth in India and China since 1990, or South Korea, Singapore, and Taiwan, since 1950, that reflects very real increases in material standards for ordinary people. There's two, relatively well-understood…

> GDP/capita aligns very closely with material standard of living for the median person

GDP is an average, not a median, so it might align with the average person, not the median. The average/mean can hide many things (see Anscombe s quartet) which is one of the problems with GDP IMO.

Re: Poland is now among the 20 largest economies

#662

Post by Leonard_of_Q »

baq wrote: post #573
avgDev wrote: post #570

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What kind of dev salaries are you seeing in Poland? I have family in Poland, they are from smaller villages and they ALWAYS complain about EU and the economy. I wonder if things are similar in large cities.

this is Poland for you. everyone complains about everything. perhaps that's the secret to success - there's always something to complain about and one in a hundred (or thousand) people actually does something about it.

> this is Poland for you. everyone complains about everything

That is western Europe for you, not just Poland. Same in the Netherlands, same in Sweden, same in Belgium, same in Denmark, same in Norway, same in France, same in Germany, etcetera. Descartes claimed that he thought, therefore he was. A more realistic and equally erudite quote would be Queror, ergo sum which translates to I complain, therefore I am.

(also, q.e.d. because I'm complaining about people complaining)

Re: Poland is now among the 20 largest economies

#663

Post by maxglute »

jmalicki wrote: post #654
maxglute wrote: post #635

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I think this what most miss. FDI is good, great if eventually lead to domestic brand to capture more % of value, like Asian Tigers. I'm not sure if the case in EU, some GDP accounting can grossly conflate actual FDI contribution, i.e. when PRC captured $6 labour for each iphone assembled but it was counting full device cost $100s towards GDP instead of just value add. Same concept as Ireland GDP & corporate tax…

Samsung, Hyundai, or Huawei never happen without starting as FDI or cheap outsourcing.

FDI itself is not enough. Modern national champions happen because state protectionism, typically under autocratic industrial policy (Asian Tigers), in combination with FDI. Hyundai was suppose to be Honda, you can throw TSMC in there. There's no sign Poland is going to get national class to world class champions, because democracies more easily captured and EU forbids tier of subsidies and protectionism that enable giants that compete with established incumbents. Is there any strategic Polish company on road to being world class?

On paper countries can build giants without FDI, but can't build giants without industrial policy Poland can't adopt due to EU trap (which basically designed to keep west euro industrial incumbents on top) and (IMO) if Poland ever tries, FDI tap going to stop. Structurally Poland is periphery not core, allowed to prosper but not overtake, which puts ceiling. Exception being defense, but even then stepping on west euro toes.

Re: Poland is now among the 20 largest economies

#664

Post by Certhas »

dwedge wrote: post #376
Certhas wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any sources for the claim that a large part of growth is off-shoring? Because that seems extremely implausible, and actually very insulting to the incredible success of Eastern Europe, before and after joining the EU, in closing the gap to Western Europe over the last 3 decades. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/gdp-per-capita-worldbank?...

The reason for the growth over different time frames can differ. Anecdotal, but most of the IT people I know from Poland worked for, as they call it, "big corpo" and generally it's offshoring either directly with companies such as DXC/Luxoft or n-ix, or through local offices (Akamai for example). If you look at the average salary in Poland (in general), and the average tech salary + the number of tech workers there,…

It's easy to say but it's also wrong. I had Claude look for actual sources.

https://emerging-europe.com/it-sector-in-focus-poland/

The IT sector is 4.4% of GDP. Poland has seen 3% of GDP growth year on year.

Re: Poland is now among the 20 largest economies

#665

Post by Leonard_of_Q »

alterom wrote: post #599
avgDev wrote: post #570

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What kind of dev salaries are you seeing in Poland? I have family in Poland, they are from smaller villages and they ALWAYS complain about EU and the economy. I wonder if things are similar in large cities.

>I have family in Poland, they are from smaller villages and they ALWAYS complain about EU and the economy Ah, the Polish MAGA. Probably Russian-influenced as well.

[flagged]

Re: Poland is now among the 20 largest economies

#666

Post by mejutoco »

VimEscapeArtist wrote: post #563

I live in Poland. This headline is misleading. Poland didn't build a top-20 economy. Western Europe and the US built their economy in Poland, because the labor is educated and cheap. There are almost no globally competitive Polish companies. The "growth" is branch offices of German and American corporations taking advantage of engineers who'll work for 40% of Berlin rates. Remove the foreign-owned sector and you're l…

That is how all economies grow. It is unnecessary to remove credit from Poland. You say labor is educated, for example. Is that also not their merit?

Didnt USA benefit from mostly not being bombed during ww2? Didnt Germany benefit from cheap Russian gas and educated immigrants after 2008 crisis in EU? In the end, we can keep going back looking for pthers to thank but the country did it, and it is fair to say so.

P.S. I also live in Poland, not Polish. I also lived in Berlin, and I dont think the salaries are always so different.

Re: Poland is now among the 20 largest economies

#667

Post by odiroot »

ricardobayes wrote: post #449
cromka wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I love the polish, but credit where credit is due > I ment: „Poland gets money, Poland transforms it into more money”. I have noticed that absolutely every time Poland's success is mentioned, someone from EU steps in to downplay it. A self-serving bias. Seriously, that type of comment is absolutely everywhere. Any YouTube video. Any Reddit post. In last couple days I have seen it about dozen times, last time today…

Based on my limited experience, Polish are incredibly workaholic and work-focused people. It's really no surprise they elevate themselves economically.

That's not really my experience as a person born and raised in Poland.

If anything the decades of communist occupation destroyed the work ethic.

We have a famous saying "whether you stand or lay down, you deserve 1000zł".

Re: Poland is now among the 20 largest economies

#669

Post by tasuki »

anikan_vader wrote: post #474
jakozaur wrote: post #454

The story is longer: Poland was the first country to make a remarkable peaceful transition from a bankrupt, failed Soviet satellite state. The shock therapy, plus NATO and EU aspirations, paved the way. It is a story of a country that made a lot of the right decisions along the way. Managed to keep consistent high growth, not a pony trick or boom/bust mode. Poland should be a role model for many other countries. Reco…

>> Poland was the first country to make a remarkable peaceful transition from a bankrupt, failed Soviet satellite state. In what sense? Czechia is richer per capita. Almost all of the former Soviet satellite states in eastern Europe have had largely peaceful (since 1991) sustained economic growth. The exceptions are exactly those countries which continue to have Russian troops occupying portions, namely Belarus, Ukra…

> Czechia is richer per capita.

Are you sure about that? I'm Czech but have lived in Poland for 8 years and visit regularly. Poland used to be way poorer than Czechia, but these days it looks the other way around. I think the stats are either lagging behind or computed wrong. Note I regularly visit both the cities and the countryside in both Czechia and Poland.

Btw, the article has a "GDP per capita growth in post-communist countries" table, with Poland at the top and Czechia at the bottom.

Re: Poland is now among the 20 largest economies

#670

Post by b0rsuk »

niemandhier wrote: post #76

I love the polish, but credit where credit is due: „Poland is the largest beneficiary of EU funds 2014-2020, with one in four euro going to Poland“ https://www.gov.pl/web/funds-regional-policy/poland-at-the-f... Update: The comments below this are strange. I ment: „Poland gets money, Poland transforms it into more money”. Is Poland more efficient in it than other countries? I do not know. Would Poland have generated…

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