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How Mark Klein told the EFF about Room 641A [book excerpt]

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Re: How Mark Klein told the EFF about Room 641A [book excerpt]

#191

Post by nraynaud »

TacticalCoder wrote: post #100
timschmidt wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People need to know about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction as well. The technique is used to shield these secret programs by laundering the information they collect through plausible evidentiary chains.

> People need to know about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction as well. The number of terrorists who have been caught because they were controlled by a police officer "because they ran a traffic light" (yeah, sure) is wild. In the EU at some point after every single terrorist attack the terrorists' names were known because they had left their passports in a car they left at the scene. (yeah, sure aga…

In France we had a case where the government tried to bring terrorist charges against someone, the problem is that the police couldn’t materially have seen what they wrote in their report, because their car was too far and the timing didn’t line up correctly. Eventually the policemen invoked confidentiality rules against their mobile phones so that no accurate probing could be made. The judge threw away the terrorist charges anyways, because the facts didn’t warrant it. Since the police knew exact facts without being there, there is a high suspicion they used illegal spying on the people and tried to launder the data.

Re: How Mark Klein told the EFF about Room 641A [book excerpt]

#192

Post by kstenerud »

"With all due respect, Cindy, you don’t know if they are classified since they don’t have to have markings and can still be classified. Only we can tell. And if they are classified, you are likely in trouble."

That's awfully convenient. Impossible to check if something's classified, but you can still go to jail over it.

Re: How Mark Klein told the EFF about Room 641A [book excerpt]

#193

Post by lmz »

deaux wrote: post #180
dylan604 wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd be amazed at the number of people that live pay check to pay check. Even on here, I'd guess the number is higher than you'd expect. There are plenty of people in tech that do not live in SV or work for a FAANG. You're failing victim to the echo chamber if you think everyone here is a well paid bit banger

- There are people with $1M+ salaries who live pay check to pay check. This is a choice. A lot of HNers fall under this category. - A lot of people who are actually poor and live pay check to pay check aren't ruined for years if they lose their job. Because the nature of their work and lack of career usually means they're unstable and replaceable "commodity" jobs in the first place. - Almost everyone who is in a posi…

Top 5% earnings only buffer you against job loss if you don't have top 5% expenditures. The hedonic treadmill is real.

Re: How Mark Klein told the EFF about Room 641A [book excerpt]

#194

Post by razakel »

firebot wrote: post #135
esafak wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Source?

Hackers 2: operation takedown is based on a true story. https://www.cybereason.com/blog/malicious-life-podcast-kevin... > his brother introduced him to a hacker named Eric Heinz, who told him about a mysterious piece of equipment he came across while breaking into Pacific Bell: SAS, a testing system that allowed its user to listen in on all the calls going through the telephone network. SAS proved to be too great of…

Even an office PBX has listen, whisper and barge. Why wouldn't a telco-grade switch have it?

Re: How Mark Klein told the EFF about Room 641A [book excerpt]

#195

Post by dbdr »

fwipsy wrote: post #169
eunit250 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's probably different if you have a family, but I have quit jobs over moral implications no problem. Most people have pretty flimsy morals and will do anything to keep the money rolling in.

How do you know how many people would quit? Even if 99% of the US would refuse to work for the NSA, the last 1% would be plenty for the job.

Stopping the action is not the only reason to quit a job you deeply disapprove of. There's a related anecdote in the book Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl. From my memory: a man working for the US embassy in Japan was unhappy and doing psychotherapy. The therapist was trying to see if his issues with his boss had something to do with his relationship to authority, digging into his relationship to his father, etc. Turns out, he was just in deep disagreement with the policies he had to enforce, and quitting solved the issue.

Quitting a job you think is harmful (or even maybe meaningless) can be good for yourself, in addition to the morality question.

Re: How Mark Klein told the EFF about Room 641A [book excerpt]

#196

Post by amelius »

kstenerud wrote: post #192

"With all due respect, Cindy, you don’t know if they are classified since they don’t have to have markings and can still be classified. Only we can tell. And if they are classified, you are likely in trouble." That's awfully convenient. Impossible to check if something's classified, but you can still go to jail over it.

[flagged]

Re: How Mark Klein told the EFF about Room 641A [book excerpt]

#197

Post by torh »

kstenerud wrote: post #192

"With all due respect, Cindy, you don’t know if they are classified since they don’t have to have markings and can still be classified. Only we can tell. And if they are classified, you are likely in trouble." That's awfully convenient. Impossible to check if something's classified, but you can still go to jail over it.

It's like a reverse get out of jail free card.

Do the other party have evidence against you? Declare classified documents and they go to jail instead of you.

Re: How Mark Klein told the EFF about Room 641A [book excerpt]

#198

Post by nxobject »

rkagerer wrote: post #185
nxobject wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My little piece... it seems like we're litigating your past below, which doesn't seem to be helpful. What's done is done; what is each of us going to do, now?

Unrelated but genuine question: When did it become vogue to use the word "litigate" in a casual context like you just did, outside of any legal proceedings or the like? Why prefer it over, for example, "debate"? (I first observed it watching a broadcast of JD Vance, but have encountered others effect the same usage since then).

Huh, good question. It's actually a very, very old use – the OED gives examples going all the way back to 1740, apparently (see entry 2b. below.)

https://www.oed.com/dictionary/litigate_v?tab=meaning_and_us...

Re: How Mark Klein told the EFF about Room 641A [book excerpt]

#199

Post by duskdozer »

try_the_bass wrote: post #145
Teever wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes that frees the people with a conscience to work on endeavours that challenge these corrupt institutions. That’s a good thing. It isn’t really a radical or counterintuitive thing to say ‘don’t do evil work for evil people.’ People who give mealy mouth excuses like ‘I was just following orders’ or ‘I was just a contractor’ are part of the problem.

> Yes that frees the people with a conscience to work on endeavours that challenge these corrupt institutions. That... Isn't really how that works in the real world, though. What happens when people with conscience leave legitimate institutions is that they lose legitimacy. Now you have a legitimate institution with power and no conscience, and a myriad of non-legitimate institutions with little power and some consci…

They may not all simply be replaced, limiting what can be done without them. https://www.americanbar.org/advocacy/governmental_legislativ...

Re: How Mark Klein told the EFF about Room 641A [book excerpt]

#200

Post by jjav »

dylan604 wrote: post #177
deaux wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people in the world? Potentially, though I doubt the "life ruined for years" part holds for >50%. Most people on HN? Definite no. Most people on HN who work in roles where they're exposed to such mass surveillance or other evil at scale (like Meta)? Absolutely not.

You'd be amazed at the number of people that live pay check to pay check. Even on here, I'd guess the number is higher than you'd expect. There are plenty of people in tech that do not live in SV or work for a FAANG. You're failing victim to the echo chamber if you think everyone here is a well paid bit banger

> You'd be amazed at the number of people that live pay check to pay check. Even on here, I'd guess the number is higher than you'd expect.

Well you don't have to live anywhere near paycheck to paycheck to be intimidated. If you're stonewalled from employment, you're in trouble unless you are so fabulously wealthy that you can afford to never work again.

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