How Mark Klein told the EFF about Room 641A [book excerpt] • Hacker News Board

Re: How Mark Klein told the EFF about Room 641A [book excerpt]

#171

Post by [deleted] » Fri, May 01, 2026, 5:02 AM UTC

anonymousiam wrote: post #167

UpsilonAlpha wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't sign NDAs with the government, you sign a lifetime obligation [1] where the penalty is treason. I doubt you did or saw any such things. 1. https://media.defense.gov/2021/Oct/18/2002875198/-1/-1/0/NSA...

I don't feel any compelling need to convince you. During my career I signed dozens of NDAs. They were all either umbrella or caveat specific. All of them cited Title 18 referencing punishments (including death) for violations of the NDA, and all of them were related to either Title 10 or Title 50 activities. Without being too specific, what I observed was the use of NSA assets to surveil grow operations within the US…

[deleted]

Re: How Mark Klein told the EFF about Room 641A [book excerpt]

#172

Post by shrubby » Fri, May 01, 2026, 5:09 AM UTC

nightfly wrote: post #147

eunit250 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's probably different if you have a family, but I have quit jobs over moral implications no problem. Most people have pretty flimsy morals and will do anything to keep the money rolling in.

Most people have no safety net and if the money stops rolling in their life is effectively ruined for several years

I always keep coming back to the Nixon years when basic income was first approved in the senate by the republicans and stopped in the house by democrats.

What a different world we'd be living in, if the (back then, at least supposedly) greatest democracy would have shown the way to a universal safety net.

How fucking sad that we ended in a world where the finders of flaws or zerodays are being suppressed and prosecuted, instead of allowing them to make the world a better place.

A handful of narcissists, sociopaths and psychopaths now hold almost all power with these structures.

At least now the pretense of democracy is dropped.

Re: How Mark Klein told the EFF about Room 641A [book excerpt]

#173

Post by fwipsy » Fri, May 01, 2026, 5:10 AM UTC

Teever wrote: post #152

try_the_bass wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes that frees the people with a conscience to work on endeavours that challenge these corrupt institutions. That... Isn't really how that works in the real world, though. What happens when people with conscience leave legitimate institutions is that they lose legitimacy. Now you have a legitimate institution with power and no conscience, and a myriad of non-legitimate institutions with little power and some consci…

That sounds great in theory, but how did it work out in practice? It's been thirteen years since Snowden, and twenty years since Mark Klein, and there have been no real reforms in the system, people continue to work for them, and with them and it's only gotten worse. The course of action that you suggest is exactly what has lead America into a Mad King scenario with big tech oligarchs and theocratic running the show…

I think there might have been some other reasons Trump got elected.

Which do you think works better--protesting/suing the people making the decision? Or being the person making the decision? It's much harder to change the course of law from the outside, without access to power. The problem is that power corrupts.

Either works if enough people care enough. Maybe instead of blaming the messengers for not putting their own careers on the line, you should blame all the people who just didn't care at all?

Re: How Mark Klein told the EFF about Room 641A [book excerpt]

#174

Post by t-3 » Fri, May 01, 2026, 5:17 AM UTC

sysguest wrote: post #163

Fnoord wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just for government security agencies, and not just in USA. Police generally fall for it as well.

well people want to finish their work and go home, that's why I know HNers don't like "surveillance everywhere", but... if you're some law enforcement, every chance to get info means hours/days saved on your work... so you reach for the "easy-way": if you can get comms of a drug gang, you can identify who belongs to that gang (instead of risking their own life by actually 'joining' the gang) But... some do cross thei…

It's mainly a problem of consequences and accountability. The people who suffer unjustly from unlawful surveillance and overreach are usually unable to do anything about it, and they are assumed to be criminals anyways so nobody cares. Punishments for violating the law are nearly nonexistent for "law enforcement", so a culture of impunity is formed that cannot be easily fixed. Anybody trying to enforce the rules would run into both corrupt and noncorrupt noncompliance, just like trying to get fast food workers to follow health and safety guidelines. It's probably impossible to reform and only a wholesale teardown and replacement without keeping anyone contaminated by the existing culture has a chance.

Re: How Mark Klein told the EFF about Room 641A [book excerpt]

#175

Post by madaxe_again » Fri, May 01, 2026, 5:20 AM UTC

bobanrocky wrote: post #97

dylan604 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unlike Snowden, I kept this to myself because I had signed (many) NDAs with the US Government. You say this like you are proud of it. Admittedly, I cannot say what I would do in that situation as I've never been in that situation, but I'd hope I'd have the fortitude to speak up on it. Having employees/contractors doing tasks that are illegal just because they came from the higher ups is no different than soldiers r…

That is an unfair insinuation - ‘that he sounds proud of it’. There are many reasons one stays quiet - like you are sole provider for a family, its beem going on for a while that you ignore/doubt its seriousness etc.

The consequences for speaking out can be very, very real, and utterly catastrophic. A good friend tried to blow the whistle on something the Cameron government was doing in the U.K., involving the judiciary, and got steamrolled for his efforts. There isn’t a whisper of the topic itself in the public domain, but his “crimes” were so bad that Cameron himself did a press conference to condemn him. His wife couldn’t take it, as these were people who’d spent their lives as loyal subjects of the system, suddenly cast out and crushed underfoot, killed herself. His kids fled the country.

So - sure - it’s the “right thing to do” to speak out, but when dealing with government you have to do it with the foreknowledge that this may have mortal (or worse) consequences for you and your family.

Profoundly formative experience for me, witnessing it all.

Re: How Mark Klein told the EFF about Room 641A [book excerpt]

#176

Post by rsingel » Fri, May 01, 2026, 5:27 AM UTC

evan_a_a wrote: post #37

jperoutek wrote: post #21

Didn't see it in the actual text of the article, but as a caption of one of the images. The actual book this is excerpted from is Privacy's Defender by Cindy Cohn https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262051248/privacys-defender/

Aka the Executive Director of the EFF.

Former. She stepped down

Re: How Mark Klein told the EFF about Room 641A [book excerpt]

#177

Post by dylan604 » Fri, May 01, 2026, 5:28 AM UTC

deaux wrote: post #151

nightfly wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people have no safety net and if the money stops rolling in their life is effectively ruined for several years

Most people in the world? Potentially, though I doubt the "life ruined for years" part holds for >50%. Most people on HN? Definite no. Most people on HN who work in roles where they're exposed to such mass surveillance or other evil at scale (like Meta)? Absolutely not.

You'd be amazed at the number of people that live pay check to pay check. Even on here, I'd guess the number is higher than you'd expect. There are plenty of people in tech that do not live in SV or work for a FAANG. You're failing victim to the echo chamber if you think everyone here is a well paid bit banger

Re: How Mark Klein told the EFF about Room 641A [book excerpt]

#178

Post by dylan604 » Fri, May 01, 2026, 5:32 AM UTC

7thpower wrote: post #112

dylan604 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unlike Snowden, I kept this to myself because I had signed (many) NDAs with the US Government. You say this like you are proud of it. Admittedly, I cannot say what I would do in that situation as I've never been in that situation, but I'd hope I'd have the fortitude to speak up on it. Having employees/contractors doing tasks that are illegal just because they came from the higher ups is no different than soldiers r…

That is incredibly easy for you to say.

Almost as easy as what trite you just typed. At least I started a decent conversation. ::shrug::

Re: How Mark Klein told the EFF about Room 641A [book excerpt]

#179

Post by largbae » Fri, May 01, 2026, 5:38 AM UTC

UpsilonAlpha wrote: post #150

anonymousiam wrote: post #66

"One big change impacting surveillance was clear: Prior to September 11, the U.S. had what could reasonably be called a “wall” separating foreign surveillance for national security purposes done by the NSA from domestic surveillance for law enforcement purposes done by the FBI." It turns out that the above statement is not entirely correct. I was aware of this rule at the time (early 90's), and was very surprised to…

You don't sign NDAs with the government, you sign a lifetime obligation [1] where the penalty is treason. I doubt you did or saw any such things. 1. https://media.defense.gov/2021/Oct/18/2002875198/-1/-1/0/NSA...

Actually security clearances do include an NDA. When I signed mine it contained an amusing clause, something to the effect of you will not share classified information until 70 years have passed or you die, whichever is _later_.

Re: How Mark Klein told the EFF about Room 641A [book excerpt]

#180

Post by deaux » Fri, May 01, 2026, 5:39 AM UTC

dylan604 wrote: post #177

deaux wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people in the world? Potentially, though I doubt the "life ruined for years" part holds for >50%. Most people on HN? Definite no. Most people on HN who work in roles where they're exposed to such mass surveillance or other evil at scale (like Meta)? Absolutely not.

You'd be amazed at the number of people that live pay check to pay check. Even on here, I'd guess the number is higher than you'd expect. There are plenty of people in tech that do not live in SV or work for a FAANG. You're failing victim to the echo chamber if you think everyone here is a well paid bit banger

- There are people with $1M+ salaries who live pay check to pay check. This is a choice. A lot of HNers fall under this category.

- A lot of people who are actually poor and live pay check to pay check aren't ruined for years if they lose their job. Because the nature of their work and lack of career usually means they're unstable and replaceable "commodity" jobs in the first place.

- Almost everyone who is in a position to be exposed to evil at scale as a tech worker, is among the top 5% earners in the world. I'm being very conservative there, it's likely top 1%.