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How Mark Klein told the EFF about Room 641A [book excerpt]

thereader.mitpress.mit.edu

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Re: How Mark Klein told the EFF about Room 641A [book excerpt]

#111

Post by Teever »

bityard wrote: post #92
anonymousiam wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not proud of it at all. The revelation was startling to me, and I was pretty unhappy about it. It was done in the name of "stopping bad people from doing bad things", but it was still illegal (at least in the white world). Snowden had the same dilemma. He was asking the NSA lawyers about the legality of their programs, and he never got an honest answer. Quitting would not have stopped the activity, and disclosing…

It's easy for others to say, "oy, you coward, you should have blown the whistle" from the comfort their web browsers. For what it's worth, I had a security clearance in a previous job (not as high as yours, I'm sure) and I understand where you are coming from. I would have likely done the same as you. Especially with my career and the ability to provide for my family on the line.

The mistake wasn't in not blowing the whistle but it was taking a job with this kind of organization in the first place.

Yeah the solution is to not put yourself into a position where you need to make these choices. The fuel for the fire that are organizations like the CIA are people who don't have moral qualms or who have flexible ones.

The less people who work for these organizations the better.

Re: How Mark Klein told the EFF about Room 641A [book excerpt]

#112

Post by 7thpower »

dylan604 wrote: post #70
anonymousiam wrote: post #66

"One big change impacting surveillance was clear: Prior to September 11, the U.S. had what could reasonably be called a “wall” separating foreign surveillance for national security purposes done by the NSA from domestic surveillance for law enforcement purposes done by the FBI." It turns out that the above statement is not entirely correct. I was aware of this rule at the time (early 90's), and was very surprised to…

> Unlike Snowden, I kept this to myself because I had signed (many) NDAs with the US Government. You say this like you are proud of it. Admittedly, I cannot say what I would do in that situation as I've never been in that situation, but I'd hope I'd have the fortitude to speak up on it. Having employees/contractors doing tasks that are illegal just because they came from the higher ups is no different than soldiers r…

That is incredibly easy for you to say.

Re: How Mark Klein told the EFF about Room 641A [book excerpt]

#113

Post by nickburns »

colechristensen wrote: post #101
nickburns wrote: post #91

arpwatch running on an edge router of mine tells me that there's a host with a DoD-registered IP address connected to my (major US) ISP network segment, which I know for a fact contains both business and residential subscribers. I port scanned it when I first discovered it just to say 'hello', and I have little doubt that a dragnet surveillance apparatus lives on the other side of that firewall. Governments have util…

The DoD also just does an incredible amount of stuff. It is entirely possible that there's just a satellite office for this or that nearby.

Long tentacles indeed.

Re: How Mark Klein told the EFF about Room 641A [book excerpt]

#114

Post by jandrewrogers »

anonymousiam wrote: post #77
dylan604 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unlike Snowden, I kept this to myself because I had signed (many) NDAs with the US Government. You say this like you are proud of it. Admittedly, I cannot say what I would do in that situation as I've never been in that situation, but I'd hope I'd have the fortitude to speak up on it. Having employees/contractors doing tasks that are illegal just because they came from the higher ups is no different than soldiers r…

I'm not proud of it at all. The revelation was startling to me, and I was pretty unhappy about it. It was done in the name of "stopping bad people from doing bad things", but it was still illegal (at least in the white world). Snowden had the same dilemma. He was asking the NSA lawyers about the legality of their programs, and he never got an honest answer. Quitting would not have stopped the activity, and disclosing…

Every administration effectively creates their own interpretation of what is permissible in this regard. The rules of engagement as it were that are set down by each administration vary widely. Nonetheless, it has effectively become a one-way ratchet.

Re: How Mark Klein told the EFF about Room 641A [book excerpt]

#115

Post by trinsic2 »

mrandish wrote: post #105
throwworhtthrow wrote: post #2

Beware, this is a book excerpt rather than a standalone blog post, so it ends on a cliffhanger. Still a fun read.

Hopefully, this comes as no more of a spoiler than revealing the Titanic sinks at the end of the movie... but, everything Mark Klein revealed in 2006 (and that Snowden revealed in 2014) is still happening daily - along with much, much worse. And just this week congress is acting to further extend the secret extra-expanded FISA powers we don't even know about. U.S. Senator Ron Wyden is on the Senate Intelligence Commi…

its been going on for decades... I don't know if there is an answer to this problem

Re: How Mark Klein told the EFF about Room 641A [book excerpt]

#116

Post by trinsic2 »

hungryhobbit wrote: post #106

Isn't AI both the problem ... AND the solution here? True, you can't publish a book anonymously anymore: that ship seems to have sailed. But if you want to publish a political piece or anything else potentially "substantive", can't you just ask AI to rewrite it for you? Instant anonymization!

What about the chat conversation from you asking it to write it?

Re: How Mark Klein told the EFF about Room 641A [book excerpt]

#117

Post by Spooky23 »

Silamoth wrote: post #93
Spooky23 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironically from the perspective of 2026, the actual "conservative" conservatives were the key opponents. The "total information awareness" and national ID efforts were really killed by the conservatives in congress. The "neocons" and moderate/conservative democrats were mostly fine with both.

What does national ID have to do with government surveillance?

Why do you think people are having a bird over age verification? Or LinkedIn profiling browsers?

Tying chain of custody of online actions to identity makes data incredibly valuable information.

Re: How Mark Klein told the EFF about Room 641A [book excerpt]

#118

Post by trinsic2 »

ambicapter wrote: post #62
GeekyBear wrote: post #18

The problem is that modern Americans politicize everything. There was a short period at the end of the Bush years when this was a big deal, but as soon as the gaslighting was coming from both political teams, it became a non-issue politically. > President Obama defended the U.S. government's surveillance programs, telling NBC's Jay Leno on Tuesday that: "There is no spying on Americans." "We don't have a domestic spy…

Everything _is_ political, as the other comment says. The problem is that no one talks about "governance", they just talk about "politics", which is not the same thing. Governance is the question of what good government should look like. Politics is just about accumulating power.

that is a good way of looking at it. I wonder though, if power is a bad thing in and of itself. I know that there will always be power. I would rather have people with good intentions have it then the opposite. Not sure how that will happen. I think when more good people get involved I guess.

Re: How Mark Klein told the EFF about Room 641A [book excerpt]

#119

Post by timschmidt »

jandrewrogers wrote: post #114
anonymousiam wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not proud of it at all. The revelation was startling to me, and I was pretty unhappy about it. It was done in the name of "stopping bad people from doing bad things", but it was still illegal (at least in the white world). Snowden had the same dilemma. He was asking the NSA lawyers about the legality of their programs, and he never got an honest answer. Quitting would not have stopped the activity, and disclosing…

Every administration effectively creates their own interpretation of what is permissible in this regard. The rules of engagement as it were that are set down by each administration vary widely. Nonetheless, it has effectively become a one-way ratchet.

I would push back against the idea that intelligence agency behavior changes administration to administration. Looking through history, it's the intelligence agencies which have superior continuity of leadership. Which suggests things about who's directing who.

Re: How Mark Klein told the EFF about Room 641A [book excerpt]

#120

Post by direwolf20 »

Karrot_Kream wrote: post #73
alwa wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your experience makes sense to me, and it feels like just the sort of hacker-ethos tinkering that brings a smile to a lot of faces around here, mine included. Complete with the thrill of discovering that kind of power, then the “ick” factor catching up with you, and you deciding to stop. Reminds me of rougher-and-readier days, when everything about online discourse felt more self-evidently… what’s the word… contingen…

Oh yes I agree. I doubt the big agencies are doing much here just because I don't think this forum is that "useful", it's not really an input into any big state or corporate actor's decision making that's worth paying attention to. I just think it's fairly easy to game this forum and I suspect it is absolutely being gamed by interest groups of individuals who want certain opinions to be more prominent. I've been on D…

How do you think the agencies and corporate suits got everyone to prefer MIT over GPL? It was all astroturfed.
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