Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Israel live-tweets assault on Gaza

arstechnica.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 170 posts

Re: Israel live-tweets assault on Gaza

#71

Post by philwelch »

skrebbel wrote: post #45
philwelch wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Before this, I merely thought of the Israeli government as a bunch of nazis That's probably the least appropriate analogy ever. > who believe that driving people out of their homes is god's work Israel is actually a surprisingly secular country. If you don't know the most basic things about a country, maybe you shouldn't go around calling them nazis and barbarians. There's a word for those kind of attitudes.

Good point. In fact, I may very well not know the most basic things about this country. But then how do you explain the colonization programme? The only explanation I've been able to figure out is some zionist idea of a right to a patch of land; some race-based sense of superiority. Why else bulldozer villages far across the border that was last determined in a treaty? These are horrible crimes, committed willingly b…

> But then how do you explain the colonization programme?

I don't especially like the settlements, actually, and neither do a lot of Palestinians. I'd be happier if the lot of them were either removed or simply abandoned to the jurisdiction of Palestinian authorities.

Sharon actually closed a lot of them awhile ago, but just like any democracy, it's hard to get away with alienating any constituency. You'll notice that even though Sharon pulled all the settlements out of the Gaza Strip, it didn't seem to improve matters there any. Also, the settlements provide a lot of jobs and economic benefits to Palestinians. It's a complicated issue, much more complicated than this bullshit of yours about "the Israelis are Nazis" (which itself is pretty fucking racist, BTW).

As for the bulldozers, do you have any good sources on that? As far as I can readily find, most demolitions are either carried out because structures were constructed (often in Israel itself) without proper building permits (though this is allegedly enforced unfairly), or because there are terrorists actively holed up inside them. Interestingly, Israel also demolishes a lot of the settlements.

This is probably a good time to point out one of my simple ground rules about this issue: I think any criticism of any party, or any policy, is reasonable, as long as one accepts that both Israel and Palestine have a right to exist as independent states.

Re: Israel live-tweets assault on Gaza

#72

Post by skrebbel »

philwelch wrote: post #48
skrebbel wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure there's people who do this, but I doubt there are many of them in this thread. The fact of the matter is that both the Israelis and the Palestinians consistently commit horrible crimes, in the name of some perceived God-declared right to a strip of desert. On individual cases, you can't blame Israel for defending against hand-made rockets flying over the Gaza strip border. Similarly, you can't blame your ave…

> I don't see how all of that has anything to do with Israel being a Jewish state, except of course that declaring a single-religion state, in general, is asking for trouble. Israel isn't a state for Judaism, it's simply a state for Jewish people. The set of Jewish people is not equal to the set of people who practice Judaism.

Right, good point. I see I've been mixing those up. So it's a single-race state? Or not that, either? (not intended in any offensive way - I'm just trying to understand what you're saying)

Re: Israel live-tweets assault on Gaza

#73

Post by blvr »

skrebbel wrote: post #59
skrebbel wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good point. In fact, I may very well not know the most basic things about this country. But then how do you explain the colonization programme? The only explanation I've been able to figure out is some zionist idea of a right to a patch of land; some race-based sense of superiority. Why else bulldozer villages far across the border that was last determined in a treaty? These are horrible crimes, committed willingly b…

Wait, i write a nasty, unfriendly post and get many upvotes. Then I admit that the nasty unfriendly post might've been based on a lack of understanding and ask for someone to explain better, and I get downvoted? What's going on, HN? EDIT: I'm editing this comment because HN won't allow me to respond to blvr's post. blvr, thanks for elaborating. I don't mean to sound hateful, and I'm willing to accept that I have it a…

Click the permalink to reply.

I don't know what you mean by 'the colonisation thing'. What are you talking about specifically?

Re: Israel live-tweets assault on Gaza

#74

Post by mkhattab »

xenophanes wrote: post #49
skrebbel wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt it'll work. Before this, I merely thought of the Israeli government as a bunch of nazis who believe that driving people out of their homes is god's work. Now, I also think they're barbarians.

And you believe posting anti-semitic remarks in public is appropriate. We should care about your opinion why? Flagged.

Could you please spare us from the anti-semitic card? HN is not the mainstream media and many here are not ignorant, so this tactic doesn't work here. It also betrays your lack of objectivity on the matter.

Re: Israel live-tweets assault on Gaza

#75

Post by [deleted] »

cup wrote: post #61
xenophanes wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The justification for settlements is as follows: buying land, and living there, is legal. Describing this process is "unilaterally moving into land where 2/3 of them live" is false. A way to stop being split on the issue is to stop believing false factual claims. Palestine will have moderate leadership sometime after the majority of Palestinians are decent people who will vote for decent leaders. Blaming Israel for t…

Calling the majority of Palestinians as indecent people is nasty.

[deleted]

Re: Israel live-tweets assault on Gaza

#76

Post by skrebbel »

philwelch wrote: post #71
skrebbel wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good point. In fact, I may very well not know the most basic things about this country. But then how do you explain the colonization programme? The only explanation I've been able to figure out is some zionist idea of a right to a patch of land; some race-based sense of superiority. Why else bulldozer villages far across the border that was last determined in a treaty? These are horrible crimes, committed willingly b…

> But then how do you explain the colonization programme? I don't especially like the settlements, actually, and neither do a lot of Palestinians. I'd be happier if the lot of them were either removed or simply abandoned to the jurisdiction of Palestinian authorities. Sharon actually closed a lot of them awhile ago, but just like any democracy, it's hard to get away with alienating any constituency. You'll notice tha…

Phil, thanks for clearing this up. I stand corrected. (hey, now, the IDF tweet didn't change my mind about the situation, but blvr and you did! dialog rocks - and thanks for your patience)

As a sidenote, I agree that the Nazi reference was over the top and I regret using it. I do not agree, however, that it was "fucking racist", since I called a government something, not a race or a nation's people.

Re: Israel live-tweets assault on Gaza

#77

Post by philwelch »

skrebbel wrote: post #58
philwelch wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Support Israel" is such a vague term. You can oppose individual policies or decisions while still supporting the basic existence of the country. The American right tends to be supportive of Israel. The American left is slightly more split, but since American Jews tend to be left-wing they exert enough of an influence on the rest. This doesn't tend to be as true in Europe, where anti-semitism never went fully out of…

Hm, I'm curious: where in Europe is anti-semitism not "fully out of fashion"? I only know my own experience, of course (the Netherands). My impression is that here, apart from Arab immigrants, people couldn't really care less whether someone's Jewish. Most Dutch Jews are so Dutch that it's hard to tell they're Jewish at all, except possibly by their names. But all of this may also be because there are so few Jews in…

> (This, of course, assumes that by antisemitism you mean actual hatred of Jews, and not "being critical of the something the Israeli government does or did")

Well, for example, there's being critical of something the Israeli government does or did, and then there's literally calling them Nazis.

There's also that charming little incident in your country where football supporters, specifically of Ajax, took on a "Jewish" identity for some reason, which was cute until rival supporters chanted "Hamas, Hamas, Jews to the gas". Oddly enough, this kind of racist abuse doesn't seem to happen in the United States. http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9404E7DB153FF...

Re: Israel live-tweets assault on Gaza

#78

Post by kamaal »

blvr wrote: post #63
skrebbel wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good point. In fact, I may very well not know the most basic things about this country. But then how do you explain the colonization programme? The only explanation I've been able to figure out is some zionist idea of a right to a patch of land; some race-based sense of superiority. Why else bulldozer villages far across the border that was last determined in a treaty? These are horrible crimes, committed willingly b…

Wow. No. You've got it completely wrong. Zionism is the idea that Jews need a Jewish nation to take Jewish refugees fleeing persecution. History has basically proved that to be true. What it's not: 1. The idea that Jews are in any way superior. All races have equal rights under Israeli law (although secular Jews have some obligations that other groups don't, i.e. mandatory military service) and Israel has a significa…

>>Zionism is the idea that Jews need a Jewish nation to take Jewish refugees fleeing persecution.

Makes perfect sense. If you settle a persecuted set of people on a totally unoccupied land, which would be totally harmless. What I don't understand is the need to persecute one already existing set of people to accommodate another set of people who just got persecuted.

If a persecuted tribe in Africa decides to settle down in Antarctica people wouldn't have a problem. But will it be OK, if they invade California drive out the existing set of people there and settle down.

Re: Israel live-tweets assault on Gaza

#79

Post by muuh-gnu »

confluence wrote: post #5

Holy shit! What the fuck are they doing? This is absolutely insane! What better way to create more terrorists than by laughing in their faces, publishing military operations on Twitter as if they were trivial events, showing military kill strikes on YouTube and using game like graphics stating their leaders have been "eliminated". Do you want to enrage your enemy into more violence or do you want to win? Do your mili…

> Do you want to enrage your enemy into more violence

Yes, in a "go on, make my day" kind of way, to justify even more future military action, since Israel is likely to win any future conflict.

> This is why the US military didn't release anything

US military's goal was not the same as Israel's goal.

> or do you want to win?

They want to win, but not as you think.

Their definition of "win" is to ethnically clean Palestinians from biblical Israel, so yes, engaging them in more and more and more violence is the way to go.

> You're just setting up the next wave of violence.

And the next wave of violence will lead to the next way of Israel wins, and the next way of Israel wins will lead to the next way of settlements and land expropriation. Mission accomplished. The Israeli far right loves it when a plan comes together.

> It's not a fucking game.

Your problem is that you dont even for a second consider the possibility that Israel is the bad guy in this game, i.e. the Nazis, so youre all the time "wrong move, wrong move, WTF are they doing?!?!". From a bully's point of view, Israels tactics fully make sense. You start a conflict and then you win and you take your victims toys and chase him from the playground.

Re: Israel live-tweets assault on Gaza

#80

Post by skrebbel »

blvr wrote: post #73
skrebbel wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, i write a nasty, unfriendly post and get many upvotes. Then I admit that the nasty unfriendly post might've been based on a lack of understanding and ask for someone to explain better, and I get downvoted? What's going on, HN? EDIT: I'm editing this comment because HN won't allow me to respond to blvr's post. blvr, thanks for elaborating. I don't mean to sound hateful, and I'm willing to accept that I have it a…

Click the permalink to reply. I don't know what you mean by 'the colonisation thing'. What are you talking about specifically?

(nice trick!)

Aie, damn. Lost in translation. I meant the settlements. But people have been elaborating about those in other comments by now. And I've come to stand corrected that even if the settlements are horrible, they're less horrible than suicide bombings and the likes.

Post reply on HN