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NeoGeo AES+: SNK announces reissue of retro console without emulation

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Re: NeoGeo AES+: SNK announces reissue of retro console without emulation

#31

Post by platevoltage »

chongli wrote: post #29
platevoltage wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate that we are in the era of Millennial dictators feeling the need to own things that they thought were cool when they were kids. I don't see how owning SNK could be considered a great investment opportunity.

I don't see how owning SNK could be considered a great investment opportunity It’s not. It sounds much more like a vanity or passion purchase. Like how Neil Young once invested in the Lionel model railroading manufacturer.

Yep. I guess owning Metal Slug is better than his previous hobby of hacking up journalists.

Re: NeoGeo AES+: SNK announces reissue of retro console without emulation

#32

Post by mrob »

chongli wrote: post #27
tombert wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

50ms is pretty high, even by LCD standards. I have one of those MiSTer Laggy measuring things, and when I have my cheap Vizio TV in "Game Mode" the latency is around 24ms, a little lower on the top of the screen and a little higher on the bottom, but still considerably lower than 50ms. Moreover, I think that OLEDs can get less than 10ms nowadays (though I do not have one to test at this moment). Since most retro game…

Since most retro games ran around 60fps, so about 17ms, That’s an oversimplification. Many retro game consoles don’t use a frame buffer. Instead they render the game state to the screen on the fly, one scanline at a time, and they’re able to process input mid-screen because they read the controller input many times faster than 60Hz (on the order of 2kHz). In practice, this means input lag is way below even 1ms. Light…

>Lightgun games, for example, rely on very precise timing of the control input vs the CRT raster and simply do not work without a CRT.

Perhaps the most famous light gun game of all time (Duck Hunt on the NES), does not rely on especially precise timing. It draws one white rectangle per frame over each duck when you pull the trigger and checks if the Zapper can see it. LCD latency will probably still break this, but it's not like the later Super Scope for the SNES that actually does track the precise raster position. I expect it would be possible to patch the timing in software to make it work for a specific model of LCD. But even if you did this, the Zapper also includes a bandpass filter at the CRT horizontal retrace rate (about 15kHz) to better reject other light sources, so you'd need to mod it to bypass that, or mod the LCD to strobe the backlight at the right frequency.

Re: NeoGeo AES+: SNK announces reissue of retro console without emulation

#33

Post by 10729287 »

pipes wrote: post #17
10729287 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Puzzle Bobble, actually, is definitely one of the more iconic Neo Geo title. If you open it, you may have a surprise. The game was such a success that Snk itself had to butcher other, less successful games (essentially Power Spikes II if I remember correctly), to produce conversions/bootlegs and answer to customer's demand. It has one of the best replayability of the system, it's very fun playing versus, plus, girls…

Ha! The only multi player game my wife will play with me :)

Classic ! Try Magical Drop 2 or 3 and Money Idol Exchanger on the same system. There's a good chance she'll love them. They're a little bit more nervous tho, especially Money Idol !

Re: NeoGeo AES+: SNK announces reissue of retro console without emulation

#34

Post by orbital-decay »

lamasery wrote: post #3

The main problem with playing older games in a modern media-hardware environment is the screen. You've got the problem that lots of them look worse, or even outright wrong (see: transparency-layering effects on things like Sonic the Hedgehog) on anything but a real CRT without some serious shader work. This is also true of older TV shows, to some extent, incidentally, especially if the only sources available are thin…

That's a predictable response, but I think you need to keep up with the times. Modern gaming rigs can do single digit ms click-to-photon latency in hugely complex game engines that have fullscreen shaders, which this thing won't have.

If you're really concerned with the latency, use a modern gaming display and a sub-frame latency retro scaler (if it won't have a builtin one).

Re: NeoGeo AES+: SNK announces reissue of retro console without emulation

#35

Post by _--__--__ »

platevoltage wrote: post #23
fooqux wrote: post #2

FYI, SNK is owned by Mohammed bin Salman. I think I'll pass giving them a single cent.

I hate that we are in the era of Millennial dictators feeling the need to own things that they thought were cool when they were kids. I don't see how owning SNK could be considered a great investment opportunity.

The payoff for MBS was to use SNK's brand recognition to promote the esports World Cup (run by another of his foundations). He even got to buddy up with some celebrities (Christiano Ronaldo and some famous DJ) when he shoehorned real people into that new Fatal Fury game.

Re: NeoGeo AES+: SNK announces reissue of retro console without emulation

#36

Post by tombert »

anthk wrote: post #30
tombert wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My first exposure to Metal Slug was actually in regular emulators, and I never used the scanline filters, so now when I use the scanline filters in Metal Slug they feel..."wrong". In my mind, Metal Slug is supposed to have really sharp, chunky pixels.

Not my case; I'm old enough to play it at mid-late 90's in both bars and arcade rooms. And that's the problem with current pixel art artists: they have no idea of what actual pixel art looked like. Hint: look at Garou with at least scanlines (or maybe a bilinear filter) enabled. That's what's Garou almost meant too look in CRT, far closer than raw pixel art.

I need to play Garou: Mark of the Wolves again, haven't touched that one in years. I believe that's the one that has a character named "Butt".

I've played a lot of Neo Geo games, and I even used to own a full MVS machine for awhile with its own CRT (mostly playing KOF 99), but I guess the scanlines never did much for me. I grew up playing the SNES and PlayStation and N64, but I almost equally grew up with emulators, so I guess I'm just used to the raw digital signal being displayed.

Re: NeoGeo AES+: SNK announces reissue of retro console without emulation

#37

Post by tombert »

chongli wrote: post #27
tombert wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

50ms is pretty high, even by LCD standards. I have one of those MiSTer Laggy measuring things, and when I have my cheap Vizio TV in "Game Mode" the latency is around 24ms, a little lower on the top of the screen and a little higher on the bottom, but still considerably lower than 50ms. Moreover, I think that OLEDs can get less than 10ms nowadays (though I do not have one to test at this moment). Since most retro game…

Since most retro games ran around 60fps, so about 17ms, That’s an oversimplification. Many retro game consoles don’t use a frame buffer. Instead they render the game state to the screen on the fly, one scanline at a time, and they’re able to process input mid-screen because they read the controller input many times faster than 60Hz (on the order of 2kHz). In practice, this means input lag is way below even 1ms. Light…

I'm not disputing that CRTs have lower input lag than LCDs or OLED. I was disputing the specific 50ms of lag claim that the parent post made; modern LCDs aren't that bad, and OLEDs are getting to a point that it's getting close to undetectable to human eyes. Even with horizontal interrupts that could be done between scanlines, there's still a limit to how fast we can actually perceive it (and frankly I'd be skeptical of anyone that claims that the 8ms of input lag that an OLED is actually affecting your gameplay).

For light gun games, yeah, that timing might matter, but I'm not convinced it matters anywhere else.

Re: NeoGeo AES+: SNK announces reissue of retro console without emulation

#38

Post by jamiek88 »

tombert wrote: post #26
pipes wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here, Samsung s95b QD oled, mister laggy tested it, as far as I can remember it's about 8ms. Also snac adapters by pass usb entirely and are pretty much zero lag as far as I understand. Retro arch has run ahead latency reduction etc, I'd like to see some comparisons of that Vs mister. I could do it myself but I've never got round to it. I've noticed that fiddling with latency reduction in retro arch really works…

I did the preemptive frames thing with Retroarch with Sonic the Hedgehog 3 a couple years ago, and I certainly convinced myself that I could tell a huge difference...and then I kept taking hits and dying just as much as I was without doing anything. It's entirely possible that someone who is better at video games can tell a huge difference (e.g. speedrunners and the like), but I'm afraid that I'm not good enough at m…

Interesting. I bought sonic origins as a palate cleanser the other day and I really feel like I can feel the latency. Sonic 1 was the only game me and my brother had for our mega drive so we know/knew everything there is to know!!

Our speed runs were crazy.

I don’t know if feeling the latency is just my age though, although I’m a semi pro SIM racer still and competitive in my late forties it’s a different kind of twitch reaction.

Re: NeoGeo AES+: SNK announces reissue of retro console without emulation

#39

Post by anthk »

tombert wrote: post #36
anthk wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not my case; I'm old enough to play it at mid-late 90's in both bars and arcade rooms. And that's the problem with current pixel art artists: they have no idea of what actual pixel art looked like. Hint: look at Garou with at least scanlines (or maybe a bilinear filter) enabled. That's what's Garou almost meant too look in CRT, far closer than raw pixel art.

I need to play Garou: Mark of the Wolves again, haven't touched that one in years. I believe that's the one that has a character named "Butt". I've played a lot of Neo Geo games, and I even used to own a full MVS machine for awhile with its own CRT (mostly playing KOF 99), but I guess the scanlines never did much for me. I grew up playing the SNES and PlayStation and N64, but I almost equally grew up with emulators,…

TBH pixel art on CRT's looked distinct, a bit smoother than LCD's. WIth just slight scanlines you could play the games well enough.

Re: NeoGeo AES+: SNK announces reissue of retro console without emulation

#40

Post by ClimaxGravely »

fooqux wrote: post #2

FYI, SNK is owned by Mohammed bin Salman. I think I'll pass giving them a single cent.

Probably why Ronaldo and Salvatore Gannaci were DLC in the new KOF game. There was a pretty audible collective groan from the fighting game community when that was announced.
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