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‘Energy independence feels practical’: Europeans building mini solar farms

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Re: ‘Energy independence feels practical’: Europeans building mini solar farms

#211

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

horsawlarway wrote: post #113
friendzis wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And don't let perfect be the enemy of good. Yes there are times when solar doesn't produce energy, but there are also times where it OVERproduces. When solar OVERproduces you have to literally pay someone to consume that energy, most probably wind farms, which could be producing energy instead. So you pay actually twice. When the solar underproduces, you need to bring in alternative sources, but those now have to c…

Home installations just cut it off. In both of these cases. I did my own battery backed installation. When I'm underproducing I can shed load (I turn off my AC - almost always that's enough, and it's automated by relay). When I'm overproducing (ex - my battery is full and my load is still not enough to consume input) I just don't let the panels generate more current than I can consume. Managing grid scale power is di…

The dilemma here for me is twofold:

(1) while it makes sense to me to distribute generation, because there are not really any significant economies of scale other than purchasing power, it doesn't make sense to distribute storage which, IIUC, has huge economies of scale.

(2) being fully off-grid where I live requires homes that can be heated in winter with heat pumps that require less than mid-winter generation levels. That means, in general, much better construction techniques than most current houses have. At our house, we generate 2x of our needs in the non-heating season, and 0.5x of our need in the heating season - covering that demand with a battery would be ridiculous.

Re: ‘Energy independence feels practical’: Europeans building mini solar farms

#212

Post by noosphr »

bokohut wrote: post #105

Several recent HN posts about "time" and these correlate superbly in relation to the now obvious, to nearly all, global energy issues. Those proactive in a reactive world are often mocked and laughed at until as such passage of time is achieved for those only reactive to learn of the proactive's hindsight choices. For those in the United States aware of the 'behind the scenes' energy grid issues this insight reflects…

A function state like China on the other hand is just building a grid that works.

Amazing what you can do when you copy how the US electrified in the first place.

Re: ‘Energy independence feels practical’: Europeans building mini solar farms

#213

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

skippyboxedhero wrote: post #156
zowie_howie wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it immediate? Sure, there is satisfaction that you are using 'free' electricity. But it does have an upfront cost. I calculated that it would take over 11 years to recoup the investment based on our current usage. Given we already get cheap night-time rates to charge the car and run appliances, it is hard to justify. Like many UK houses, we have gas central heating too. I guess if we had a battery too (more invest…

UK also has massive subsidies. I know someone who got a government subsidy, the company didn't complete the job, got paid for the government for the full job, and they calculated the payback was 50+ years. At this point, I do not understand how anyone can possibly believe that the people advocating for this stuff are thinking in terms of economic (as opposed to political or social) returns. This stuff makes no econom…

I can't speak for the UK, but ... I did my own install of a 6.7kW ground-mount array. The materials cost me about US$12k. That meant just 7-10 years until payback. Sure, I saved on labo(u)r costs, often the most expensive part of the work, but the overall point remains ... it absolutely makes sense, at least in the "right" parts of the planet.

Re: ‘Energy independence feels practical’: Europeans building mini solar farms

#214

Post by noosphr »

PowerElectronix wrote: post #170
theshrike79 wrote: post #2

Distributed energy production / storage is the key for resiliency in the future. Every solar farm doesn't need to be China Size - it doesn't even need to be a "farm", just put them on roofs. And don't let perfect be the enemy of good. Yes there are times when solar doesn't produce energy, but there are also times where it OVERproduces.

I'm every day more convinced that the only reasonable future of energy production is distributed solar and storage with microgrids at the neighbourhood level or so. Anything bigger in scale is prone to being shittified to the limit by public entities.

We had this in the 19th century. We moved to a centralised grid because when you don't use it to rent seek it is vastly more efficient.

Re: ‘Energy independence feels practical’: Europeans building mini solar farms

#215

Post by iugtmkbdfil834 »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #205
iugtmkbdfil834 wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the answer may be more complex than that. I mean, I know you are not wrong. My boss only recently made a crack at how pointless solar energy is in the world of cheap gas. But it is not just cost. It is a level of control the contractor has over it. The solar systems, as currently pushed, are designed to be carefully monitored at all times; if you read the contract ( in IL anyway, but I presume it is common, b…

> The solar systems, as currently pushed, are designed to be carefully monitored at all times; if you read the contract ( in IL anyway, but I presume it is common, because my mom had a similar experience ), I have to give the company a way in every time they desire to look at the panels. I did my own install of a ground mount 6.7kW array. I initially declined to connect to the inverter manufacturer's monitoring, beca…

Hmm, could you recommend any good references for a personal build? I was debating doing a test run with a shed ( if I mess it up too bad, it won't hurt as much kinda deal ).

Re: ‘Energy independence feels practical’: Europeans building mini solar farms

#216

Post by thelastgallon »

iugtmkbdfil834 wrote: post #194
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Those proactive in a reactive world are often mocked and laughed at I'm going to start calling this a Jehovah's Witness complex. Where amplified, mostly imagined mockery of an incredibly dominant view, at least in group, is used as evidence of that view's righteousness and, by extension, rightness. > prices will not be dropping...Energy grid decentralization is occurring Cost versus resilience. A low-cost grid has…

I think the answer may be more complex than that. I mean, I know you are not wrong. My boss only recently made a crack at how pointless solar energy is in the world of cheap gas. But it is not just cost. It is a level of control the contractor has over it. The solar systems, as currently pushed, are designed to be carefully monitored at all times; if you read the contract ( in IL anyway, but I presume it is common, b…

> he was it is designed is .. very American in the worst possible way.

Spot on!

Re: ‘Energy independence feels practical’: Europeans building mini solar farms

#217

Post by therealdrag0 »

password4321 wrote: post #171
pjc50 wrote: post #8

Fairly boilerplate article, but the bit that is news is the UK balcony solar permitting. Better longread: https://solarenergyconcepts.co.uk/post/plug-in-solar-uk/ Government press release with a long list of pull quotes: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-to-make-plug-i... (I note that in the alternate universe where Ed Miliband became PM because he didn't eat a bacon sandwich, we could have had this a dec…

In the US, Utah has allowed balcony solar since May 2025 and Virginia is expected to allow it starting in January 2027 (awaiting the governor's signature).

There’s 26 active bills! It’s taking off fast. Exciting developments.

https://pluginsolarusa.com

Re: ‘Energy independence feels practical’: Europeans building mini solar farms

#218

Post by therealdrag0 »

itsmek wrote: post #160
misja111 wrote: post #27

Can anybody explain how these plug-in solar panels work? I am suprised that it's possible to just plug them in to your wall socket. For instance, isn't it complicated to have their output be in perfect sync with the frequency that comes in via the electricity net? Because to me it seems that if they won't, you will have lower benefits or even a net minus after plugging it in.

Syncing them with electricity is easy. The hard part is preventing export to the grid which requires either a compatible smart meter that can communicate with your panels or a transformer clamp installed by an electrician. My understanding is some meters measure both directions equally so if you do end up exporting power you can conceivably increase your utility bill.

Why is preventing export hard? Just shut down production when the grid is down, which is how plug-in solar systems work.

Re: ‘Energy independence feels practical’: Europeans building mini solar farms

#219

Post by hamdingers »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #208
mytailorisrich wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not expert but one difference is that in Germany the standard wiring is radial circuits with 16A MCBs while in the UK it's ring wiring with 32A MCBs. So in the UK we have 2.5mm^2 wires in a ring on a 32A MCBs... Of course a 2.5mm^2 wire is rated ~20A so any issues with the ring (sockets still work since connected from the other branch) can burn the wire before the MCB trips...

Does anyone know the US equivalent terminology for a "ring final" ?

We would call it "a serious code violation." It's prohibited in the NEC and always has been, it's objectively less safe.

From what I understand the UK allowed it because of a severe postwar copper shortage and it persists to this day because it's allowed and a bit cheaper.

Re: ‘Energy independence feels practical’: Europeans building mini solar farms

#220

Post by SoftTalker »

hamdingers wrote: post #145
labcomputer wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Unidirectional breakers” aren’t a thing for AC circuits.

Not in the US, but in parts of Europe they effectively use AFCI/GFCI breakers for everything.

They are terrible for anything motorized though. The one in my bathroom trips every time I turn off the vent fan.
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