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‘Energy independence feels practical’: Europeans building mini solar farms

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Re: ‘Energy independence feels practical’: Europeans building mini solar farms

#191

Post by oliwarner »

bluGill wrote: post #161
hamdingers wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not in the US, but in parts of Europe they effectively use AFCI/GFCI breakers for everything.

Those are code in the us now too. (with exceptions for where they don't make sense)

Always important to note that "code" does not mean "must meet this standard". Many existing installations will not meet current code and there are varying levels of code (at least in the UK) that mean anything from an electrician can ignore minor faults through to network-notifiable issues.

But that's rather the point here that consumers are the ones who are going to be plugging in these devices, with no appreciation for their circuits and safety devices. The only code that matters is the last version of it adhered to when their home was last wired. In extremes, that can be 40 years or more.

Re: ‘Energy independence feels practical’: Europeans building mini solar farms

#192

Post by phyzome »

throw0101c wrote: post #48
pjc50 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once you've bought the panel, unlike oil, that's it. The panel doesn't remember its national origin.

> Once you've bought the panel, unlike oil, that's it. The panel doesn't remember its national origin. Until there's a geopolitical event occurs and your supply chain gets cut off so any expansion, warranty, or replacement units cannot arrive, so you're stuck at the your current level of deployment (which may or may not be sufficient for your needs).

So you're saying that instead of the risk of an energy system that can't grow in capacity, we should stay with the current one that risks shrinking to zero at the drop of a geopolitical hat?

Solar panels are capex. Oil is opex. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zgxb8I1nk2I

Re: ‘Energy independence feels practical’: Europeans building mini solar farms

#193

Post by t0mas88 »

cjrp wrote: post #4

The UK previously didn't allow small plug in solar panels (the kind that you just plug in to a mains socket) due to, I believe, safety reasons. This has changed within the last few days https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/solar-roadmap/

There is a real safety issue with plug-in solar panels and plug-in batteries. Things go wrong if other loads are on the same circuit, which is almost unavoidable with a plug-in system.

Consider a circuit in a home, designed to carry 16A like a common EU/UK circuit, protected by a 16A breaker. Then plug in solar or a battery that delivers just a small 10A. Now in case some other thing on that circuit draws 26A, the breaker doesn't stop it and the circuit is overloaded.

If that same solar was installed as a fixed setup on its own circuit with no other loads on it, it would be safe and protected by the 16A breaker in the switchboard. It's the combination with other loads that causes issues.

Re: ‘Energy independence feels practical’: Europeans building mini solar farms

#194

Post by iugtmkbdfil834 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #183
bokohut wrote: post #105

Several recent HN posts about "time" and these correlate superbly in relation to the now obvious, to nearly all, global energy issues. Those proactive in a reactive world are often mocked and laughed at until as such passage of time is achieved for those only reactive to learn of the proactive's hindsight choices. For those in the United States aware of the 'behind the scenes' energy grid issues this insight reflects…

> Those proactive in a reactive world are often mocked and laughed at I'm going to start calling this a Jehovah's Witness complex. Where amplified, mostly imagined mockery of an incredibly dominant view, at least in group, is used as evidence of that view's righteousness and, by extension, rightness. > prices will not be dropping...Energy grid decentralization is occurring Cost versus resilience. A low-cost grid has…

I think the answer may be more complex than that. I mean, I know you are not wrong. My boss only recently made a crack at how pointless solar energy is in the world of cheap gas.

But it is not just cost. It is a level of control the contractor has over it. The solar systems, as currently pushed, are designed to be carefully monitored at all times; if you read the contract ( in IL anyway, but I presume it is common, because my mom had a similar experience ), I have to give the company a way in every time they desire to look at the panels. I can't just take it down, I need to hire them. I can't not sell the house without them ( and the buyer has to take over that contract ).

I like solar tech, but the was it is designed is .. very American in the worst possible way. Yes, there seem to be better options popping up, but that is not where contractor money is at..

edit: Just in case, I got a quote in 2024 so obviously things may have changed on that front ( oddly, BBB may actually help with my particular set of complaints as the contractors will have to spread their bets somewhat ).

Re: ‘Energy independence feels practical’: Europeans building mini solar farms

#195

Post by fc417fc802 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #185
mbgerring wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not weird if you’ve been participating in discussions on clean energy since the beginning of this century. The inevitability of the energy transition has been obvious for so long, and even when it’s done there will be cranks insisting that it’ll never work.

> inevitability of the energy transition Huge difference between tranistioning to renewables and going completely de-centralised. Even if we put a limit to the latter at the community level, it's a recipe for de-industrialisation. Centralised power production, even with renewables, has economies of scale, and those economies amplify with volatile demand sources, e.g. residences.

You can decentralize residential power without doing the same for industrial loads. Doing so is a mixed bag. It's somewhat more expensive however it's less prone to failures during natural disasters, failures aren't outside of your ability to fix, and it isn't subject to politics to nearly the same degree.

When you consider the logistics of strengthening the last mile of residential to accommodate EVs in a sparsely populated place like the US (or rather the apparent lack of political will to do so) it starts to look extremely attractive.

Re: ‘Energy independence feels practical’: Europeans building mini solar farms

#196

Post by fc417fc802 »

LunaSea wrote: post #178
mbgerring wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not weird if you’ve been participating in discussions on clean energy since the beginning of this century. The inevitability of the energy transition has been obvious for so long, and even when it’s done there will be cranks insisting that it’ll never work.

I like the transition to renewables , but there is nothing inevitable about it. We don't produce solar panels or have the materials to produce them in Europe. So we're just as dependent on imports as before.

Those imports have a much longer half life than barrels of oil.

Re: ‘Energy independence feels practical’: Europeans building mini solar farms

#197

Post by PunchyHamster »

password4321 wrote: post #172
oliwarner wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

British industry and standards bodies think this is an unsafe plan. Of course they would because it's work being taken away from them but it would be allowing people to plug generators into ring finals with unidirectional breakers. It's not even guaranteed that the circuit is protected by anything newer than fuse wire or an MCB. No guaranteed earth leakage detection. No guaranteed surge protection. Relying on the che…

I am not very well versed on this topic but I believe the balcony solar products market one of their safety features as "anti-islanding protection". Personally I wonder what happens if multiple balcony solar systems are connected... can each still tell when the grid is down since the other power source is active? https://www.digikey.com/en/articles/anti-islanding-and-smart...

people put few kW worth of micro-inverters and it is fine so I imagine that is figured out problem...

question is whether the ones allowed for sale implement it well and are tested for it

Re: ‘Energy independence feels practical’: Europeans building mini solar farms

#198

Post by oliwarner »

formerly_proven wrote: post #87
oliwarner wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

British industry and standards bodies think this is an unsafe plan. Of course they would because it's work being taken away from them but it would be allowing people to plug generators into ring finals with unidirectional breakers. It's not even guaranteed that the circuit is protected by anything newer than fuse wire or an MCB. No guaranteed earth leakage detection. No guaranteed surge protection. Relying on the che…

The situation in germany is essentially the same, but that's why net supply by these is limited to 800 W. I don't think anything changes w.r.t. earth leakage, why would the presence of the solar supply change anything from the RCD and fault point of views, respectively?

If your generator is plugged into their own circuit, it wouldn't change much.

If you plug it into an overloaded ring final (which is not uncommon in the UK - half our house's sockets are on a single ring), you have to rely on the generator being able to detect faults to protect that circuit.

You could also overload that circuit's wiring. If you have a a 16A Ecoflow, plug it into a 32A ring, you could draw 48A before tripping the grid circuit breaker, potentially causing significant heat in the wires. Dinky 3A generators won't do that but I don't think they're the limit our government are talking about.

Re: ‘Energy independence feels practical’: Europeans building mini solar farms

#200

Post by mbgerring »

fc417fc802 wrote: post #195
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> inevitability of the energy transition Huge difference between tranistioning to renewables and going completely de-centralised. Even if we put a limit to the latter at the community level, it's a recipe for de-industrialisation. Centralised power production, even with renewables, has economies of scale, and those economies amplify with volatile demand sources, e.g. residences.

You can decentralize residential power without doing the same for industrial loads. Doing so is a mixed bag. It's somewhat more expensive however it's less prone to failures during natural disasters, failures aren't outside of your ability to fix, and it isn't subject to politics to nearly the same degree. When you consider the logistics of strengthening the last mile of residential to accommodate EVs in a sparsely p…

A good friend of mine is a solar installer in rural California, and he is booked solid building battery and solar systems sized to charge cars, because depending on PG&E is worse than spending the money to go off-grid.
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