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‘Energy independence feels practical’: Europeans building mini solar farms

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Re: ‘Energy independence feels practical’: Europeans building mini solar farms

#21

Post by mytailorisrich »

tjansen wrote: post #18
dust42 wrote: post #6

I once read an article that in Berlin the sewage system is flushed with fresh water because too many people have installed water saving toilet flushers. So plenty of people bought these water savers and now the price of water has gone up because the water that is directly flushed needs to be paid too. The 'balcony power stations' are the same thing. They get subsidised, and you even get a fixed kWh price when pushing…

As soon as everybody is paying spot prices, balcony power stations are not economically viable anymore. Even today, on a sunny day, spot prices for electricity are either very low or even negative. The more solar power is available, the lower these prices will be. So your balcony power station is replacing electricity you could get for free anyway. At night, when you are not producing electricity, you still need to b…

To me this illustrates that with renewables (solar and wind) the key is storage. You want to grab all you can during excess production/very low prices periods and then use that for the rest of the day.

You can do exactly that by buying battery packs but (1) they are more expensice pieces of kit than solar panels and (2) capacity and output of DYI/plug in systems is very limited.

A quick check online also says that (in the UK) peak spot prices are usually 7am-10am and 5pm-9pm, which are basically when demand picks up or hasn't dropped yet while solar panels are useless...

Re: ‘Energy independence feels practical’: Europeans building mini solar farms

#22

Post by myrmidon »

watwut wrote: post #9
dust42 wrote: post #6

I once read an article that in Berlin the sewage system is flushed with fresh water because too many people have installed water saving toilet flushers. So plenty of people bought these water savers and now the price of water has gone up because the water that is directly flushed needs to be paid too. The 'balcony power stations' are the same thing. They get subsidised, and you even get a fixed kWh price when pushing…

> I once read an article that in Berlin the sewage system is flushed with fresh water because too many people have installed water saving toilet flushers. So plenty of people bought these water savers and now the price of water has gone up because the water that is directly flushed needs to be paid too. What is this supposed to mean? You flush less water, therefore water price is more expensive, because flushed water…

Presumably that the water bill (for tap water) was priced to cover both tap water provisioning and sewage works. But people using (free) rainwater to flush toilets ruined the pricing model, making the tap water price go up.

I honestly don't see the problem, it's probably still worth it (because society still needs to provide less tap water and saves there).

Re: ‘Energy independence feels practical’: Europeans building mini solar farms

#23

Post by goodpoint »

watwut wrote: post #9
dust42 wrote: post #6

I once read an article that in Berlin the sewage system is flushed with fresh water because too many people have installed water saving toilet flushers. So plenty of people bought these water savers and now the price of water has gone up because the water that is directly flushed needs to be paid too. The 'balcony power stations' are the same thing. They get subsidised, and you even get a fixed kWh price when pushing…

> I once read an article that in Berlin the sewage system is flushed with fresh water because too many people have installed water saving toilet flushers. So plenty of people bought these water savers and now the price of water has gone up because the water that is directly flushed needs to be paid too. What is this supposed to mean? You flush less water, therefore water price is more expensive, because flushed water…

The conclusion that saving water is greenwashing is just wrong.

Re: ‘Energy independence feels practical’: Europeans building mini solar farms

#24

Post by [deleted] »

watwut wrote: post #9
dust42 wrote: post #6

I once read an article that in Berlin the sewage system is flushed with fresh water because too many people have installed water saving toilet flushers. So plenty of people bought these water savers and now the price of water has gone up because the water that is directly flushed needs to be paid too. The 'balcony power stations' are the same thing. They get subsidised, and you even get a fixed kWh price when pushing…

> I once read an article that in Berlin the sewage system is flushed with fresh water because too many people have installed water saving toilet flushers. So plenty of people bought these water savers and now the price of water has gone up because the water that is directly flushed needs to be paid too. What is this supposed to mean? You flush less water, therefore water price is more expensive, because flushed water…

[deleted]

Re: ‘Energy independence feels practical’: Europeans building mini solar farms

#25

Post by friendzis »

theshrike79 wrote: post #2

Distributed energy production / storage is the key for resiliency in the future. Every solar farm doesn't need to be China Size - it doesn't even need to be a "farm", just put them on roofs. And don't let perfect be the enemy of good. Yes there are times when solar doesn't produce energy, but there are also times where it OVERproduces.

> And don't let perfect be the enemy of good. Yes there are times when solar doesn't produce energy, but there are also times where it OVERproduces.

When solar OVERproduces you have to literally pay someone to consume that energy, most probably wind farms, which could be producing energy instead. So you pay actually twice. When the solar underproduces, you need to bring in alternative sources, but those now have to cover all their fixed costs and generate return on investment over this limited timeframe, which means the actual backup prices hit stratospheric levels.

What's the actual cost of solar with actual net-billing?

Re: ‘Energy independence feels practical’: Europeans building mini solar farms

#26

Post by te_chris »

theshrike79 wrote: post #2

Distributed energy production / storage is the key for resiliency in the future. Every solar farm doesn't need to be China Size - it doesn't even need to be a "farm", just put them on roofs. And don't let perfect be the enemy of good. Yes there are times when solar doesn't produce energy, but there are also times where it OVERproduces.

Wild that you're getting downvoted for saying something so obvious. Weird.

Re: ‘Energy independence feels practical’: Europeans building mini solar farms

#27

Post by misja111 »

Can anybody explain how these plug-in solar panels work? I am suprised that it's possible to just plug them in to your wall socket.

For instance, isn't it complicated to have their output be in perfect sync with the frequency that comes in via the electricity net? Because to me it seems that if they won't, you will have lower benefits or even a net minus after plugging it in.

Re: ‘Energy independence feels practical’: Europeans building mini solar farms

#28

Post by dust42 »

goodpoint wrote: post #23
watwut wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I once read an article that in Berlin the sewage system is flushed with fresh water because too many people have installed water saving toilet flushers. So plenty of people bought these water savers and now the price of water has gone up because the water that is directly flushed needs to be paid too. What is this supposed to mean? You flush less water, therefore water price is more expensive, because flushed water…

The conclusion that saving water is greenwashing is just wrong.

> This is just made up.

Or not. https://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article152318777/Wassersparen...

Edit: parent changed his answer, I have included it now.

Re: ‘Energy independence feels practical’: Europeans building mini solar farms

#30

Post by ben_w »

pjc50 wrote: post #13
Gibbon1 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have the curse of having an mom who was a smart CPA. All this stuff root top solar, plug in solar costs at least twice what utility solar. And only makes sense when you have messed up rate setting schemes that enable arbitrage. But it's not what you want if you want to get the most GW connected as fast as possible. Like the requirements that new houses have roof top solar. You could get twice as much if you just in…

> Like the requirements that new houses have roof top solar. As a CPA child, you should understand that the same money is very different when it comes out of a different account. (everyone watches two critical numbers, income tax and government deficit, so the #1 priority is to hide capital spending somewhere else, in this case by moving it to buyers of new homes)

While true in general, I suspect that this won't change house prices as (I think) those are more driven by supply-demand imbalances rather than the actual costs, and that the increase in costs will go into someone else's profit margin, which may be some mix of the builders (although they're famously opaque from all the sub-contracting) and the land owners.
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