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A Japanese glossary of chopsticks faux pas (2022)

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Re: A Japanese glossary of chopsticks faux pas (2022)

#211

Post by thaumasiotes »

vunderba wrote: post #143

When I first moved to Taiwan and was just getting a handle on Chinese, I asked a waiter "請給我一個筷子" - not yet being familiar with proper measure words. The waiter (who had a bit of a sense of humor) brought me exactly ONE chopstick. I laughed and repeated 請給我另一個筷子 ( Please give me another chopstick ) and he brought out another one. Of course later my friend told me that I should have used 雙 to indicate I wanted a "pair…

> Of course later my friend told me that I should have used 雙 to indicate I wanted a "pair" of chopsticks.

That's hard to guess. There are three common measure words meaning "pair"; 副 is for "pairs" that are connected, like a "pair" of scissors in English, but 双 and 对 are basically identical in significance as far as I know.

> The waiter (who had a bit of a sense of humor) brought me exactly ONE chopstick.

Slightly unfair, since 一个筷子, beyond being semantically anomalous, is more or less ungrammatical too. If you actually wanted one chopstick, you'd say 一只筷子.

What kind of path did you take that taught you how to say 另一个 before you learned about measure words?

Re: A Japanese glossary of chopsticks faux pas (2022)

#212

Post by Lio »

AdamN wrote: post #192
scheme271 wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the deeper question is whose standards and why should we consider them the standard?

Some of them of course are invented whole cloth. British Received Pronunciation was invented and needs to be learned and is the standard of the upper class. It's neither right nor wrong but it's there to differentiate.

You say “needs to be learned” but that’s no more so than any other accent.

We just grow up with it because it’s how our parents and the parents of our friends speak.

If you want to change your accent you can, of course, get elocution lessons but most Brits do not. We just have a large variety of accents of which RP is one.

Re: A Japanese glossary of chopsticks faux pas (2022)

#214

Post by lo_zamoyski »

3eb7988a1663 wrote: post #98
chasil wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a wiki. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eating_utensil_etiquette Edit: The wiki on chopsticks has an etiquette section broken down by country. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chopsticks#Chopstick_customs,_...

The difference between the American and European styles has been used as plot point in fictional works, including the 1946 film O.S.S. and the 2014 series Turn: Washington's Spies.[5] In both works, using the wrong fork etiquette threatens to expose undercover agents. Nuts. Apparently I have been a German spy all this time. I don't have time to waste swapping a fork around.

American zigzagging utensil acrobatics always seemed like a lot of nonsense to me. It looks bad and fiddly.

Re: A Japanese glossary of chopsticks faux pas (2022)

#215

Post by rglullis »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #204
rglullis wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that's argumentum ad populum. Mind you, I'm not saying that standards must be followed. I am just saying the same thing I tell my kids: - the standards are there, wishing they didn't exist doesn't invalidate them - the reason rules and standards came to existence might or might not be applicable to our current context, but some people will expect you to follow them regardless. - If a rule or standard seems silly…

> the standards are there, wishing they didn't exist doesn't invalidate them If people act like a standard doesn't exist, then the standard actually doesn't exist, because that's the only thing that defines a standard.

Most people in the US use imperial unit, it doesn't mean metric doesn't exist.

Standards are not absolutes.

Re: A Japanese glossary of chopsticks faux pas (2022)

#216

Post by ghaff »

3eb7988a1663 wrote: post #98
chasil wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a wiki. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eating_utensil_etiquette Edit: The wiki on chopsticks has an etiquette section broken down by country. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chopsticks#Chopstick_customs,_...

The difference between the American and European styles has been used as plot point in fictional works, including the 1946 film O.S.S. and the 2014 series Turn: Washington's Spies.[5] In both works, using the wrong fork etiquette threatens to expose undercover agents. Nuts. Apparently I have been a German spy all this time. I don't have time to waste swapping a fork around.

I’m not even sure what the technical etiquite is. As a right handed American it just seems more natural to have my knife in my right hand but if I’m just using a fork I tend to switch that to my right hand. Didn’t even think about it until right now.

Re: A Japanese glossary of chopsticks faux pas (2022)

#217

Post by jech »

apeescape wrote: post #202
rvba wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is is also topic od relevance. Poland has honorifics that are probably on par to those in Japan, but since the language is difficult to learn and frankly speaking nobody cares about Poland, barely anyone even knows this. Also lots of corporations prefer "american style" approach of just refering by name (even to the CEO), so this dissapears. Probably could write few pages about this, but nobody would care to read.

I'm interested in learning more about this! As a Finn I love Poland and have been there multiple times (most recently just two weeks ago). I don't know the language, but details like honorifics reveal interesting tidbits of the culture and society. I guess I should prompt an LLM about it.

>> Poland has honorifics that are probably on par to those in Japan

> I'm interested in learning more about this!

It's very simple, actually.

For strangers, you use the third person and the title « Pan » or « Pani » (Sir or Lady). You avoid pronouns, « The Lady has forgotten the Lady's purse on the table ».

For friends, you use the t-form ("ty", thou), and use a diminutive rather than the full name. « Johny, you've forgotten your bag on the table ».

For work colleagues, you traditionally use « Pan » or « Pani » with the full form of the first name. « Mister John, the mister's bag is on the table ». This is perceived as old-fashioned, and is increasingly being replaced by the t-form.

The v-form has fallen into disuse, as it was promoted by the Communist regime.

(The old-fashioned honorifics still exist, but they are only used in administrative correspondence: the only time when you're "the respectable gentleman" is when you need to pay taxes.)

Re: A Japanese glossary of chopsticks faux pas (2022)

#218

Post by BrandoElFollito »

cmcaleer wrote: post #105
cthalupa wrote: post #4

Interesting. Some of these are big deals (particularly the ones mentioned as important) but others I have seen Japanese people in Tokyo do quite consistently. Soroebashi - not on the table, but I've seen chopsticks aligned by pushing them against the plate hundreds of time. I've also seen them used to stir miso soup, etc. plenty. Others I don't know that I would have much of an inclination to do and haven't seen but…

I think if you were to do an Osaka version of this, the list would be limited to maybe 4 of these (licking, chopsticks upright in rice, passing between chopsticks, and pointing esp. toward a senior would be taboo). Whereas when I had a date with a girl from Kyoto, one of the first things that happened when we went to eat was she had to stop me from picking up my chopsticks impolitely and show me the proper way of doi…

I would say you dodged a bullet.

I dated many foreign girls and it was always fun to discover the cultural differences.

There are similar faux-pas in France but, really, nobody with an ounce of common sense cares. You like your red wine cold as I do? Someone will maybe mention that you will be loosing some aroma znd that's all. You add sugar and ice? This is probably not a drink for you and you will get some laughs but that's all.

I eat my starters after the main meal in the company restaurant, nobody cares.

You are there to have pleasure, this is not West Point

Re: A Japanese glossary of chopsticks faux pas (2022)

#219

Post by rglullis »

YeahThisIsMe wrote: post #200
rglullis wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that's argumentum ad populum. Mind you, I'm not saying that standards must be followed. I am just saying the same thing I tell my kids: - the standards are there, wishing they didn't exist doesn't invalidate them - the reason rules and standards came to existence might or might not be applicable to our current context, but some people will expect you to follow them regardless. - If a rule or standard seems silly…

But the populus sets the standards. If people decide not to follow a particular one anymore, it stops being the standard.

You and I are using different meanings for standard.
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