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Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

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Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#421

Post by esseph »

cwnyth wrote: post #412
esseph wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am using a system-installed Steam, but sometimes a Steam Flatpak can help with troubleshooting, because it bundles components inside of the flatpak. Running games this way may give you a 5% performance penalty, but it's a good way to see if you have a packaging issue (other things needing installed, or misconfigured). Also are you running th Linux native one or the proton version? I run everything through Steam wit…

I'll try again. I tried both native Linux and a dozen Proton builds, and none would load, even with no mods or DLC. I'll try again with the latest, and if that doesn't work, I'll try the flatpak instead of via RPM Fusion.

There is a note on protondb about needing the most recent proton-ge release. Use ProtonQT flatpak, should help you install / maintain proton-ge versions. Will get you the latest updates as they release.

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#422

Post by drob518 »

xtracto wrote: post #364
drob518 wrote: post #362

I use MacOS, so I don’t have a dog in this hunt, but it seems like the foremost issue is distributions making Wayland the default before it’s ready to accept that responsibility, not with Wayland itself. That said, 17 years is a long time to wait for it to mature, so another question would be about the Wayland developers’ goals, both short and long term. Do the Wayland developers actually want to replace X11 with Way…

I also use MacOS, but have used Linux since 1997 (way too many distros), so i hold it close to my heart. For me the Wayland story is a great example of https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-should-... They started saying "let's rewrite from scratch, X is too complicated "; 17 years later, they have realized the reasons for all the complexity that was written during 25 years (1984 by MIT). I guess in ar…

Indeed. Clean sheets of paper don’t stay clean very long in the real world. That said, in the manner of “plan to throw one away,” we can learn from our mistakes and do better the next time around. Though perhaps X10 was the one that got thrown away before X11.

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#423

Post by Lockal »

Not sure if this in line with HN guidelines (per "tangential annoyances" rule), but god, that "animation: drift 2s ease-in-out infinite alternate;" on body kills me, literally - it redraws the whole page with 120 fps, draining the battery, while nothing changes. I don't think it is even "too common to be interesting" - I rarely see this (or actually, I see such tech for the first time). It is specifically annoying because the article attempts to talk about modern software quality.

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#424

Post by pjmlp »

naikrovek wrote: post #396
pjmlp wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first thing window compositors that care about performace do, is use shared memory, then there are a couple of other tricks that don't fit into everything is a file with a stream of bytes. Try to imagine how a Vulkan driver could be done on top of a plain file system interface. Not one that kind of works, one that can match the performance of existing implementations.

> The first thing window compositors that care about performace do, is use shared memory, then there are a couple of other tricks that don't fit into everything is a file with a stream of bytes. Then don't use "everything is a file" to do it. I already said that. Use shared memory, I don't care. I'm not talking about implementing anything on Plan9, I'm talking about implementing something new on Linux, instead of imp…

Sorry, I thought this was supposed to be how much better Plan 9 happens to be in operating system design for graphical interfaces.

Apparently not.

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#425

Post by xorbax »

BowBun wrote: post #46
palata wrote: post #17

Disclaimer: I don't have any skin in this game, I was fine with X11 and I am fine with Wayland, and I actually think it's nice to have both (and more, like Xlibre I think?). I understand complaints about systemd, I don't understand the complaints about Wayland. This whole article sounds like a big rant and doesn't seem to bring much information. > I also don't care for the "security" argument when parts of the core r…

> Who is forced to use it? Just use X11, as you said (many times) you do already. This is my understanding of his actual concern - Linux corps are pushing Wayland as a replacement for X11 when it is full of issues. Anecdotally my experience was the same. I'm a dev so I'm fine in a terminal, but trying to switch to KDE actually sent me BACK to Windows. Basic windowing stuff just does not work, and like the OP says, to…

> trying to switch to KDE actually sent me BACK to Windows.

....uh, why not use Cinnamon or MATE or Gnome or XFCE?

Conflating KDE with desktop Linux is strange

I say this as someone who suffered the same problems trying to use KDE (frequent windowing freezing requiring logout) and just swapped to Cinnamon. It's two mousebutton clicks at the login.

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#426

Post by pjmlp »

jhasse wrote: post #359
pjmlp wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My comment is a fact, without the Windows games ecosystem, by developers living and breathing on Windows, with Windows development tools, Proton has nothing to play, even if many of Windows games are developed on top of cross-platform engines. Unfortunely Valve failed to make native Linux gaming a reality, not even game studios targeting Android NDK bother, which has the same 3D and audio APIs as GNU/Linux.

Audio APIs on Android are completely different than on GNU/Linux. 3D was also different (OpenGL ES vs OpenGL mess), only now it's starting to become kinda the same with Vulkan.

Nope, they are also available as they are Khronos standards for audio, and Mesa also does OpenGL ES.

Do you need a tutorial?

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#427

Post by genthree »

esseph wrote: post #420
genthree wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Steamdeck loads games into some kind of nested x11 renderer-in-a-window, I think. If for no other reason than to try to avoid Wayland’s extra input latency? Dunno. Maybe you lost some component it needs to work, if regular Steam also does that.

Regular steam does not do that. At this point on most hardware (minus SOME Nvidia, I think older stuff like 2XXX) you should have less latency in Wayland than x11.

I was under the impression that some of the anti-screen-tearing and other features in Wayland unavoidably set a higher (and, higher-enough to be noticeable in some contexts) floor on latency, though, because of how those features necessarily work. I don't mean drivers.

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#428

Post by NetMageSCW »

elsjaako wrote: post #375
darthoctopus wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who is forced to use it? Just use X11, as you said (many times) you do already. I can no longer use GNOME on X11, and the decision to remove support was a deliberate one. Users are definitely being forced.

You can use an old version of Gnome and accept older software, or you can organize some fellow GNOME enthusiasts to maintain it, possibly with paid developers. You can't legally get old versions of Windows or Photoshop, and you can't legally fix them if you find problems. GNOME gives you that freedom. This isn't just a theoretical possibility: both MATE and Cinnamon are GNOME forks. You can argue that maintaining and…

You can legally get old versions of Windows, but it isn’t recommended.

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#429

Post by saghm »

jpetso wrote: post #350
saghm wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the #1 thing I miss right now is Barrier (Synergy) for using my macbook from my linux desktop) It's admittedly tough to keep up with all of the forks that have happened, but the current iteration, Input Leap, has worked for this for me for years now https://github.com/input-leap/input-leap

That's not even the most recent iteration, there's also Deskflow now which is maintained by the main Synergy developer and a very active independent dev. Works fine on Wayland afaik. Also has a wiki page with the history of all the forks! https://github.com/deskflow/deskflow

Unbelievable! Thank you, I guess I'll have to see if I should switch over to that one now

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#430

Post by NetMageSCW »

palata wrote: post #327
dehrmann wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I actually think it's nice to have both Options that are equivalent enough for most end users just cause confusion. There are also too many distros, and the Gnome vs. KDE competition set desktop Linux back another 10 years. That's three dimensions of big, important choices with not much downside if you pick the happy path and a whole lot of downside if you don't.

The very reason I like Linux is for this diversity. I genuinely don't really get your point of view, which I actually see a lot, and which to me sounds like you want Windows or macOS, but somehow don't realise it. Let's imagine this: some company makes an operating system based on Linux, in an efficient manner, by systematically choosing one way to solve a problem (one window manager, one init system, one file system…

Some people just want to get work done and fine tuning or customizing their OS is not that.
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