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Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

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Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#391

Post by fluffybucktsnek »

snvzz wrote: post #240

XLibre exists simply because you can't just "force X11 to die" (Xorg's strategy) for as long as someone is willing to work on it. Now, there is a group of people who actively hate on XLibre sorely because it pretty much derailed such a plan. These people (who are no doubt sick in their heads) should focus their energy on improving Wayland rather than running hate campaigns on XLibre and its developers.

I have yet to see those hate campaigns. If anything, I see more hate campaigns from XLibre enthusiasts against Wayland on comment sections.

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#392

Post by tmtvl »

kps wrote: post #374
tmtvl wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Desktop mode on the Steam Deck uses X11. I think that's why the brightness control is fucked up (ever notice how the brightness is always 40% when you switch to desktop mode?). You can manually switch it to Wayland, but Steam input is broken under Wayland (or at least it was last time I checked, which is admittedly half a year ago or something).

> input is broken under Wayland Drop the ‘Steam’, it's cleaner. Wayland's raison d'etre is to push frame buffers without tearing. Input is an afterthought.

That's odd, I'm using Wayland on my desktop and, for example, Japanese input works 問題ない. Then again, I haven't tried every possible input method/peripheral in existence, so I may just be the one in [some arbitrary large number] who lucked out.

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#393

Post by fluffybucktsnek »

ghusto wrote: post #349
MBCook wrote: post #6

The major comitters and maintainers of X decided it was a lost cause and unfixable. Were they just supposed to keep working on the massive pile of hacks they felt needed abandoning? They did what they thought was best. You hate it. Fine. Do you think things would be better if they kept working on the unfixable mess? I trust them to know what was going on better than random commenters.

That really isn't his gripe. In fact near the end he describes would have been a good direction for starting fresh. His pain is that it's been 17 years and some basic core functionality is either still broken or entirely missing. It's not my expertise so I don't know if it could have been planned any better, but 17 years and _basics_ still being broken doesn't sound great.

I think part of the issue is that there's a couple of misconception about Wayland. Wayland focuses, exclusively, on being a window management protocol. Use cases such as screen sharing and accessibility are out of scope for such. Instead, they were supposed to be implemented through their own protocols. But those protocols didn't show up for a long while.

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#394

Post by FatherOfCurses »

Arch + Wayland finally got me dailying Linux for non-business use instead of Windows or Mac about a year ago. I admittedly have riced out things a bit but it is the most pleasant computing experience I currently have access to.

The only pain I've encountered is not being able to get RustDesk going, but that's not been a show-stopper for me.

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#395

Post by dehrmann »

teo_zero wrote: post #275
whynotmaybe wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what's the difference between x11, wayland, gnome, kde and all the others. The fact that people always debate over which one is best is one of the reason why I don't switch to Linux desktop. Theres always the sane debate of Macos VS Windows VS Linux. That's a good one for me because there are many pros and cons for each of them. But then, when you try to really look into Linux, it's an unstoppable flow o…

> this perpetual debate over which is the best only tricks me into believing that whichever distro I'd choose, it will be the wrong one. What a bizarre conclusion to draw! Why don't you believe that whichever distro you choose, it will be way better than what you have now?

There was a book on this called "The Paradox of Choice." Its argument is that too many choices stress people out over the fear of choosing wrong.

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#396

Post by naikrovek »

pjmlp wrote: post #378
naikrovek wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the interface doesn't have to remain a file if that's not suitable. rendering to a texture (an image) then displaying the image is what window compositors do, and what some games do. plan9 has a file you can write to which just dumps the image to the window/screen. there is no reason this could not work for Plan9. And if you don't want to open a file, write to it, then close it every frame, don't. implement a faster…

The first thing window compositors that care about performace do, is use shared memory, then there are a couple of other tricks that don't fit into everything is a file with a stream of bytes. Try to imagine how a Vulkan driver could be done on top of a plain file system interface. Not one that kind of works, one that can match the performance of existing implementations.

> The first thing window compositors that care about performace do, is use shared memory, then there are a couple of other tricks that don't fit into everything is a file with a stream of bytes.

Then don't use "everything is a file" to do it. I already said that. Use shared memory, I don't care. I'm not talking about implementing anything on Plan9, I'm talking about implementing something new on Linux, instead of implementing Wayland.

> one that can match the performance of existing implementations

pretty easy if we're not talking about Linux anymore. FreeBSD can run Linux programs faster than Linux can, and given Plan9's size, if we wanted to do it there, we could perform even better than that.

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#397

Post by Sweepi »

glzone1 wrote: post #223

Does anyone know what is up with RDP support on linux? I'm trying to migrate to linux but I need to be able to RDP to a headless machine running my desktop from Windows machines. How is this not solved? Is wayland worse or better here?

Accessing a Linux machine from Linux/Windows via RDP is not fun. Accessing a Windows machine from Linux/Windows via RDP works excellent - I use Remmina on Linux, but there are ofc lots of alternatives, as usual.

Points on accessing a Linux(Fedora/KDE Plasma) machine via RDP:

  - as I understand it, you cannot open a new session, you can only access an existing one -> forget about a headless machine, it will have to render its DE into to void if you want access it via RDP. The work-flow is more like VNC than RDP.
  - X11 has problems, Wayland is definitely worse. Queue the people who will tell me/you that it works fine them. My last attempt on Fedora ended with a "working" setup. Working in quotes, since I had to accept/allow every incoming connection on the host machine (in a pop-up window which auto-hides after a few seconds and did work ~60% of the time), making it useless for the intended use case. You can workaround this by SSH'ing into the machine and accepting the connection somehow, but I gave up at this moment.
  - there is also some fun to be had regarding display resolution and "session passwords", but compared to the fun with Wayland "security" and portals, its manageable

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#398

Post by j0057 »

No, lack of maintainers and maintenance on Xorg would have made Linux desktop unviable altogether. High DPI and fractional scaling are very badly supported on Xorg, and architecturally impossible to build.

Wayland is where development happens, so for better or worse, that is what you'll have to use. If you don't like it, go maintain Xorg, if you can't, you're in no position to complain.

I sense a lot of conservative "they took away our X11 freedom" and I have no understanding for it.

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#399

Post by dismalaf »

lyu07282 wrote: post #390
dismalaf wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dunno if I'd call the people whining about Wayland hackers. More like freeloaders. Hackers make stuff. Also there's nothing about Linux or hacking culture that would be necessarily left or right wing. Maybe somewhat anti establishment with the desire for computing freedom (and in the west the left is firmly the "establishment", pushing the surveillance state forward).

> and in the west the left is firmly the "establishment" When I think of the left i think of socialists and anarchists, the establishment you mean are liberals, meaning pro-market/privatization/etc. It always amazes me how the right was able to sell themselves as anti-establishment with the average politically uneducated person. The right also pushes the surveillance state forward, the most substantial surveillance l…

You're being intentionally obtuse, shifting the goal posts.

It doesn't matter what you claim to think the left is, the left absolutely is the establishment. And if you think there's no authoritarian wing of the left you're either blind or lying. Leftist states are absolutely authoritarian, from the UK jailing people for social media posts to China to extreme examples like NK, Cuba and Venezuela.

> right also pushes the surveillance state forward

There's been recent news pieces here about stuff like age verification that is firmly coming from the left.

Both sides can be authoritarian or not. Libertarianism is a thing. And in many places in the world, Eastern Europe for example, anti-authoritarianism definitely has a "right-wing" lean due to a (hated) history of communism.

Linux definitely attracts those who don't like large corporations like Apple or Microsoft, but other than that there's a wide variety of beliefs (or even a lack of beliefs).

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#400

Post by dismalaf »

tliltocatl wrote: post #238
bigyabai wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Additionally, the Steam Deck ships with Wayland by default. Hundreds of thousands of gamers are stress-testing it without any complaint that I'm aware of.

Games isn't exactly the best stress test for a windowing system. Most (if not all) run in full-screen mode and don't really use it much after the launch. And that's not what desktop computing is about. You want to run multiple programs, you want them to integrate with each other. But games don't need any of this.

> you want them to integrate with each other.

Do you? Not going to lie, I'm perfectly happy just using the apps I want to use and having none of them talk to each other. 90% of my use is covered by Vivaldi (browser stuff which is most stuff these days) and Kitty (Neovim, random TUIs and utilities). The few other apps I have are Steam, Krita and Blender, which are all worlds unto themselves and have no need to integrate with anything.

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