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Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

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Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#351

Post by whynotmaybe »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #195
whynotmaybe wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what's the difference between x11, wayland, gnome, kde and all the others. The fact that people always debate over which one is best is one of the reason why I don't switch to Linux desktop. Theres always the sane debate of Macos VS Windows VS Linux. That's a good one for me because there are many pros and cons for each of them. But then, when you try to really look into Linux, it's an unstoppable flow o…

>What am I supposed to do? Spend a few hours to try each one and find the best for my 13 years old i5 with a Nvidia gt440 that's used 3 hours per month? The performance difference will be minimal. It's an aesthetic choice, pick the one you like the look of or give a few of them a try. It's like cars. Some people have extreme opinions on matters, some would be fine picking almost any car, and most test drive a few bef…

Very good, I'll see it that way now.

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#352

Post by Blikkentrekker »

__d wrote: post #257
Blikkentrekker wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only that, the situation with Wayland also made me kind of afraid of the future of open source because it dawned on me that many of the figureheads in open source are actually simply put mentally unstable and extremely zealous and lack nuance. It didn't occur to me before but look at all the figureheads in free software: Theo de Raadt, Richard Stallman, Ulrich Drepper, Lennart Poettering, Linus Torvalds, Drew Dev…

I wouldn't say "mentally unstable", but zealous is probably fair. To create something like the GNU project, or OpenBSD, or Linux, takes serious levels of commitment. You really have to believe in it, and to a degree, you have to _will_ it into being. Along the way, you need to explain why your crazy idea is worth all the sacrifice, discourage those who would distract your team members, maintain your own and the team'…

> That said, we all enjoy the fruits of their labors ...

Well, we also enjoy the issues. When you talk to them they are extremely uncompromising in practice and extremely tribalistic. I think “tribalistic” is maybe a better word for what I feel is an issue. “Not invented here syndrome” reigns supreme in open source and in general it's full of extreme fanboys who aren't willing to admit anything is wrong with “their tribe” and aren't willing to acknowledge any issue whatsoever and defend everything to the death.

The opposite is also just as true though. Many of the users and figureheads will believe everything is wrong with “other tribes” and refuse to acknowledge any of the merits and good ideas.

Proprietary developers have no allegiance but to money and there's something to be said for that. They just work for a company because it pays them and will switch to another company when they get a better contract there and in many ways that makes far less loyal and thus level headed about many things when talking to them.

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#353

Post by throw0101c »

kibwen wrote: post #192
Ferret7446 wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect part of that is the Xorg maintainers (who are also behind Wayland efforts) are actively trying to kill it and make it as unbearable as possible

It's all open-source. If you think the maintainers are trying to sabotage the codebase, you have the freedom to fork it.

> If you think the maintainers are trying to sabotage the codebase, you have the freedom to fork it.

But do you have the skill to actually maintain that fork? Do you have the time to keep it going?

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#354

Post by tmtvl »

palata wrote: post #320
tliltocatl wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Games isn't exactly the best stress test for a windowing system. Most (if not all) run in full-screen mode and don't really use it much after the launch. And that's not what desktop computing is about. You want to run multiple programs, you want them to integrate with each other. But games don't need any of this.

There is a "Desktop mode" that I, at least, use more than the handheld mode. Not sure if it's running Wayland though.

Desktop mode on the Steam Deck uses X11. I think that's why the brightness control is fucked up (ever notice how the brightness is always 40% when you switch to desktop mode?). You can manually switch it to Wayland, but Steam input is broken under Wayland (or at least it was last time I checked, which is admittedly half a year ago or something).

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#355

Post by Blikkentrekker »

simonask wrote: post #303
Blikkentrekker wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really simple, then I have to use GNOME or KDE or any other thing that is on Wayland which I don't use. AwesomeWM, Xmonad, Fluxbox, OpenBox and many other interfaces just aren't on Wayland and have no intention to be because it just doesn't really do well what they want to and they don't feel like maintaining two versions. The real issue with Wayland and “setting back” isn't what the article says, but just that…

You're lamenting the use of time by people, but you are not those people's boss. People work on what they want to work on. There is no rule that people who worked on Wayland (and I happen to think they did a great job) would have worked on Xorg instead, or that the original motivations for building Wayland are invalid.

Well that's the issue with free software isn't it. In properitary software people work on what their boss tells them to work on which is decided by market research based on what people want.

Others said in this thread that Wayland in many ways was more so trying to solve issues for developers than for users and that's true.

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#356

Post by RandomMarius »

Running a 3 monitor setup on both Wayland and X11, the displays are wildly different in DPI. In the past I’ve reverted to X11 simply to have Slack screen sharing work, but recently I’m staying on Wayland due to better DPI handling in our production app.

Slack screen sharing works when I share my screen twice, and then Slack sometimes crashes. Google Meet and Zoom screen sharing has always worked well in Wayland, so I imagine they will fix this. I’ve also been able to use OBS to do screen recordings, but the easier default application does not work.

It’s definitely becoming better, and forcing it as the default is what was needed. It took 17 years because nobody used it by default.

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#357

Post by trekkie99 »

ghusto wrote: post #348

The developer response is more what I would describe as entitled, rather than the user complaints: > Regardless, I simply don’t give a shit about you anymore. > > We’ve sacrificed our spare time to build this for you for free. If you turn around and harass us based on some utterly nonsensical conspiracy theories, then you’re a fucking asshole. You haven't sacrificed your spare time. You've done a thing you wanted to…

Why is the burden being put on the developers and not the distro maintainers that (potentially/allegedly) prematurely implemented the new(?) thing?

insert xkcd dependency comic

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#358

Post by trekkie99 »

eviks wrote: post #204

> Entitlement and bullying of open-source maintainers is not appropriate, and it's understandable that the developers lash out after feeling beaten down by entitled users. Is it not understandable that the users lash out after being beaten down by arrogant developers calling them assholes? At least their lashing out seems to be appropriately targeted at the source?

It’s not appropriate. It’s the distro maintainers who force their users.

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#359

Post by jhasse »

pjmlp wrote: post #342
scheeseman486 wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Better than trying to make a point and failing to make it. And if I didn't, at least I tried to be funny as that counts for something, your comment is just noise.

My comment is a fact, without the Windows games ecosystem, by developers living and breathing on Windows, with Windows development tools, Proton has nothing to play, even if many of Windows games are developed on top of cross-platform engines. Unfortunely Valve failed to make native Linux gaming a reality, not even game studios targeting Android NDK bother, which has the same 3D and audio APIs as GNU/Linux.

Audio APIs on Android are completely different than on GNU/Linux.

3D was also different (OpenGL ES vs OpenGL mess), only now it's starting to become kinda the same with Vulkan.

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#360

Post by tmtvl »

mid-kid wrote: post #317
twothreeone wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's basically what I heard ten years ago from individuals (and even universities) for why they switched to Mint.. but even now, if you ask Perplexity for a "debian-based distro thats not ubuntu" Mint is the second option.

What other options are there?

SolydXK. There's others, like Siduction and whatnot, but Solyd is pretty solid.
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