"Moving parts in rubbing contact require lubrication to avoid excessive wear. Honorifics and formal politeness provide lubrication where people rub together. Often the very young, the untravelled, the naive, the unsophisticated deplore these formalities as "empty," "meaningless," or "dishonest," and scorn to use them. No matter how "pure" their motives, they thereby throw sand into machinery that does not work too well at best." - Robert Heinlein
I beg you to follow Crocker's Rules, even if you will be rude to me
161–170 of 335 posts
Re: I beg you to follow Crocker's Rules, even if you will be rude to me
#162If we accept that any one person can take responsibility for their feelings then it follows that everyone is responsible for their own mind. Otherwise what exactly are we saying? And emotions are complex, especially offence, it is practically impossible to say that something will reliably offend a specific person without trying it and seeing how they react. Even for the reactee. Someone can easily say "whatever happe…
Of course everyone can take responsibility for their emotions. It's simply that many don't. And some that want you to care for their emotions. More to the divide, there are many who won't consent to doing so it letting you not do so. It is also the case that everyone can decide about this.
Re: I beg you to follow Crocker's Rules, even if you will be rude to me
#163Earlier quoted context omitted.
This sounds like a refutation of the concept of taboos as a useful category, by the definition I use a taboo is something that may not be discussed openly. There's a theory that a culture without taboos is past it's peak in some important way- does crocker have any response to that criticism?
Is the critique any more substantial than "the vibes are off?"
The critique is "Taboos probably have a use." I think it's a good faith point. It's not as strong of a critique as "Taboos have purpose {x}" [Maintain ethical standards, promote public safety] or to say "Taboos probably have a use because {y}" [They are in almost every society, some rules should be rules but not laws].
Re: I beg you to follow Crocker's Rules, even if you will be rude to me
#164Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've heard of taboos forbidding discussion in religious contexts, for religious (superstitious) reasons, but what definition of taboo are you using that it doesn't just mean "forbidden"? There's a taboo to marrying your blood sibling, but discussing such marriages is fine. If a culture generally allowed marrying such a sibling I think it'd be past its peak, maybe. But I don't see how discussing it would contribute to…
Try to start up a conversation about the relative merits of marrying your siblings and I bet everybody else in the room will suddenly get very uncomfortable. They'll be thinking "Of all possible things we could talk about, why this??" You're right that taboos also concern actions, not just discussion, but in this case it's probably both.
> They'll be thinking "Of all possible things we could talk about, why this??"
Sure, but the point is that they should just say that, and the person who raised the issue must then explain why it's worth their time. Maybe there's an important point they're trying to make, maybe not.
Re: I beg you to follow Crocker's Rules, even if you will be rude to me
#165Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's the theory, but there's absolutely normative statements in this piece. For example: > When you spend the first third of your message establishing that you are a nice person who means well, you are not being considerate but you are making the recipient wade through noise to get to signal. You are training them to skim your messages, which means that when you actually need them to read carefully, they might not.…
Yes, exactly. I strongly prefer directness in technical communication at work. But the way the article author phrases his preferences as absolute truth rubs me the wrong way. Also if I worked with that person then after reading the article I would have perhaps the opposite reaction to the author's intentions. You still have to walk on eggshells to not offend him by including any bit of information that he might consi…
I love this point as much as I hate it in practice. We all have different preferences and it is more helpful to be clear about ours rather than declare them "correct". The way we expect these differences to be navigated can become oppressive.
Re: I beg you to follow Crocker's Rules, even if you will be rude to me
#166The writer asks for it, so I will be blunt. They are demanding people have perfectly formed thoughts crafted in a way to give them just the information they wanted with no consideration for the process of thinking or consideration for the person speaking. It is selfish and impossible. Articles like this, I think, expose how bad we have gotten at both speaking and listening. "I personally value directness, so when som…
Context matters.
You communicate differently in person vs with async text.
If you don’t have your thoughts together, if you see a problem but are not sure of the fix, just say that.
Make it clear why you are communicating with me, do you have a specific request? A question? Just want to chat? Have a general discussion about an issue?
All fine, just be clear
Re: I beg you to follow Crocker's Rules, even if you will be rude to me
#167The writer asks for it, so I will be blunt. They are demanding people have perfectly formed thoughts crafted in a way to give them just the information they wanted with no consideration for the process of thinking or consideration for the person speaking. It is selfish and impossible. Articles like this, I think, expose how bad we have gotten at both speaking and listening. "I personally value directness, so when som…
> Communication is mind control. The point isn't the words, it is literally trying to get a person to do something.
You're describing manipulating people, not communicating with them.
The point of communication between engineers is usually to establish a mutual understanding, not make them do something you want. Through that mutual understanding you both come to agree on what should be done.
Often, coming to that mutual understanding on complex projects with experienced engineers can be difficult, because we're human and we inevitably misunderstand complex systems in a multitude of ways on our path to understanding them.
Being able to be brutally honest with each other about our misunderstandings is what the author is talking about. When you work with people who get that individuals misunderstanding things is part of the process, and nobody takes or imputes it personally, you are suddenly free to focus on the actual meat of the problem instead of worrying how people may or may not feel about it.
Re: I beg you to follow Crocker's Rules, even if you will be rude to me
#168This post is a poor exposition of Crocker’s Rules. Crocker’s Rules were a reaction to the avoidance of direct discussion of topics where some people treat the mere act of discussion in any capacity as offensive. Sacred cows and taboos for which there are social consequences even when asking honest questions. Crocker’s Rules, practically speaking, were a declaration that no good faith discussion was intrinsically offe…
This sounds like a refutation of the concept of taboos as a useful category, by the definition I use a taboo is something that may not be discussed openly. There's a theory that a culture without taboos is past it's peak in some important way- does crocker have any response to that criticism?
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Re: I beg you to follow Crocker's Rules, even if you will be rude to me
#169Earlier quoted context omitted.
You say you are being blunt, but then 5 paragraphs of exegesis follows. TL;DR. Talking takes time and effort. So does listening. Be brief. Get to the point.
Out of curiosity, are you a reader? When was the last time you read a full length chapter book for fun? Does it feel like work to you? Is it a slow process? I ask not to insult, but to understand. I can't help but wonder if a lot of this demand for terse language comes from a simple inability to read well? Reading is really not supposed to feel like work to the educated, and it does not to me. For me its just a state…
Not the GP, but I'm an avid reader. One of the books I read (Strunk & White's Elements of Style) had this to say to aspiring writers: "Omit needles words."
Re: I beg you to follow Crocker's Rules, even if you will be rude to me
#170This may be the most wrongheaded and intellectually lazy post I've seen on this site, and I'm glad to see folks responding accordingly.