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I beg you to follow Crocker's Rules, even if you will be rude to me

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Re: I beg you to follow Crocker's Rules, even if you will be rude to me

#141
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A passive-aggressive interview "question" is a hilariously bad example of "directness". Nah dude, you were just a jerk.

Probably. I would argue that showing up extremely late for an interview that you scheduled is considerably more jerk-ish. It also wasn’t passive aggressive, or at least it wasn’t intended to be. I actually wanted to know if that was just a thing that was common in the company so I could plan accordingly.

Didn’t your momma teach you that two wrongs don’t make a right??

If someone is a jerk to you, and then you’re a jerk to them… you’re still a jerk.

Re: I beg you to follow Crocker's Rules, even if you will be rude to me

#142
The writer asks for it, so I will be blunt. They are demanding people have perfectly formed thoughts crafted in a way to give them just the information they wanted with no consideration for the process of thinking or consideration for the person speaking. It is selfish and impossible. Articles like this, I think, expose how bad we have gotten at both speaking and listening.

"I personally value directness, so when someone communicates with me in that way, it deos influence how I perceive them, even subconsciously."

Communication is mind control. The point isn't the words, it is literally trying to get a person to do something. I often point out to people that if you just couldn't see people's lips move then speech would appear like the sci-fi definition of psychic powers. The better a person is at communication the more they will fit their message to the audience to get the action intended. If 'direct' really works then over time it will be used but the fact that direct isn't used often implies strongly that it doesn't work for most people or it has secondary effects that are too negative. Demanding the exception is a pretty big ask especially if your aren't willing to meet half way.

A second aspect here is that while communicating we are developing our thoughts. We need time to tease out our real intentions and filler conversation helps that. Arguing 'they should have just said x from the start' is 20/20 hindsight a lot of the time. Expecting me to come to you with a terse, perfect information drop tailored to your quirks or else you will get annoyed with me is your problem, not the speaker's.

In the end speakers are practicing a really hard skill and the author ignores how hard it is. Learning to listen when someone has a hard time communicating something is also a really hard skill that this article completely ignores. If I could sum this article up it would be 'I want to give up trying to learn how to listen so now it is your fault I don't understand you'.

Re: I beg you to follow Crocker's Rules, even if you will be rude to me

#143

The writer asks for it, so I will be blunt. They are demanding people have perfectly formed thoughts crafted in a way to give them just the information they wanted with no consideration for the process of thinking or consideration for the person speaking. It is selfish and impossible. Articles like this, I think, expose how bad we have gotten at both speaking and listening. "I personally value directness, so when som…

At lot of this isn't true in practice because we live in an async word. Perfect example is giving bad news. So much dancing verbal dancing around it when people really know the answer.

The best team I've ever worked on had little social cushioning. This doesn't mean people were being mean to each. The directness of everyone on that team was great because we could work towards resolving issues quickly and without any fluff. This also allowed us to find the best solution.

Re: I beg you to follow Crocker's Rules, even if you will be rude to me

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I subscribe to the thesis of Death of the Author , that just because someone came up with something, it doesn't necessarily given them a permanent special privilege in its interpretation. Everybody can understand the work as they prefer, and if anything, the work takes on a life of its own in greater society and evolves together with it. (Hence the limits on the duration of copyright.) This is why many common idioms…

> "I could care less" Do people really say this? Is it exclusive? I've only heard the inverse: "I couldn't care less". Edit: genuine question. Please explain downvotes!

> Do people really say this? Is it exclusive? I've only heard the inverse: "I couldn't care less".

"I could" is American. "I couldn't" is British.

As AmEn is now more widespread, the former is widespread, but as a native speaker of BrEn I absolutely detest it and never ever use it.

Re: I beg you to follow Crocker's Rules, even if you will be rude to me

#145
I used to value this sort of communication. Sometimes I still do. Some feedback I got once that seems relevant to anyone who prefers this style:

----

Key takeways:

1. People are more important than code.

2. People have a right to work in an environment free of perceived hostility.

3. There is a legitimate reason for the perception and hard work may be necessary to understand why this is.

Ask yourself these questions periodically during a conversation:

1. Am I listening to the other person?

2. Is there an equal amount of give and take or is my primary objective to make someone understand my point of view?

3. Does the person want to understand what I am saying?

Re: I beg you to follow Crocker's Rules, even if you will be rude to me

#146
Asking (begging?) people to communicate with you in a certain way because you think it is depriving you of your attention(time?) is _much_ more selfish because you are depriving people of the opportunity to control how they are perceived.

How and what people think of me is extremely important to me. I want to be perceived as someone who is effective _and_ pleasant to work with. Changing my voice to suit your inability to summarize and interpret the ideas being communicated is selfish and antisocial behavior.

You are not a being of pure logic. The way I say something to you _will_ effect your perception of me AND the topic at hand.

> Politeness has a place, but I beg you put clarity first.

Having conversations with little-to-no noise as possible has a place, but I beg you to consider that the person conversing with you has a baseline level of empathy and ego and is not a p-zombie.

Wanting to be seen a certain way is just as (if not more) important than the extremely minor distress you feel by having to read some extra words.

Re: I beg you to follow Crocker's Rules, even if you will be rude to me

#147

Maybe this is a bit US-centric, direct negative feedback is very common in many cultures, e.g. Dutch

> Maybe this is a bit US-centric,

You are violating the rule of the principle in saying this. :-)

(Yes, I am aware it does not apply here.)

It is EXTREMELY US-centric and frankly as a Brit who lived and worked in Central Europe and was previously engaged to a Norwegian, I find Crocker's rules laughable.

How it looks to me is:

"Use European manners with me. Don't waste your words or my time. Shut up and get on with it."

Re: I beg you to follow Crocker's Rules, even if you will be rude to me

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "I could care less" Do people really say this? Is it exclusive? I've only heard the inverse: "I couldn't care less". Edit: genuine question. Please explain downvotes!

They don’t explain the downvotes, but here are some discussions of the expression: https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/could-couldnt-care-l... https://www.britannica.com/dictionary/eb/qa/I-COULDN-T-care-... https://www.vocabulary.com/articles/pardon-the-expression/i-...

> But if you are the kind of person who cries out against this abomination we must warn you that people who go through life expecting informal variant idioms in English to behave logically are setting themselves up for a lifetime of hurt.

Re: I beg you to follow Crocker's Rules, even if you will be rude to me

#149
This is why I love Boston: everyone here, at least in public, operates by Crocker’s Rules.

Blocking the whole escalator at rush hour? “ONE SIDE, ASSHOLE” while someone pushes them aside and moves up.

Shoving past exiting riders on the T rather than letting them off first? “LET US EXIT, ASSHOLE” as they’re shoulder-checked.

SUV or Monster Truck in the compact car spaces? “CAN’T YOU READ, ASSHOLE” as the tiny car beside them deliberately flings their door open into their bodywork.

I love it. Fastest I’ve ever adapted to a new city thanks to the glut of direct feedback. Haven’t been called an asshole in a decade.

—-

Humor aside, yeah hi I am one of those people who thrive on the sort of direct feedback Crocker’s Rules permit, because context switching sucks and the “wind up” of flowery communication ratchets my OCD into outright anxiety as it tries to pick out every possible level of nuance, tone, intent, and outcome.

If I fucked up, man, just tell me how and show me how I can do better next time. That’s all I need. I don’t need a weighted blanket and hot tea’s worth of communication coziness, I just need actionable feedback so I can apologize, fix it, and get back to work.

Re: I beg you to follow Crocker's Rules, even if you will be rude to me

#150
post #146

Asking (begging?) people to communicate with you in a certain way because you think it is depriving you of your attention(time?) is _much_ more selfish because you are depriving people of the opportunity to control how they are perceived. How and what people think of me is extremely important to me. I want to be perceived as someone who is effective _and_ pleasant to work with. Changing my voice to suit your inabilit…

"I want to be perceived as someone who is effective _and_ pleasant to work with."

That seems like a good reason to adapt your communication to your audience. If x finds preamble unpleasant, but you use unnecessary preamble when communicating with x, that won't help you be perceived as pleasant to work with.

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