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I beg you to follow Crocker's Rules, even if you will be rude to me

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Re: I beg you to follow Crocker's Rules, even if you will be rude to me

#121

Post by kstenerud »

normie3000 wrote: post #108
jiggawatts wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I subscribe to the thesis of Death of the Author , that just because someone came up with something, it doesn't necessarily given them a permanent special privilege in its interpretation. Everybody can understand the work as they prefer, and if anything, the work takes on a life of its own in greater society and evolves together with it. (Hence the limits on the duration of copyright.) This is why many common idioms…

> "I could care less" Do people really say this? Is it exclusive? I've only heard the inverse: "I couldn't care less". Edit: genuine question. Please explain downvotes!

People really do say this, among other curious expressions that have fallen into common use.

You're being down voted for nit picking language.

Re: I beg you to follow Crocker's Rules, even if you will be rude to me

#122

Post by duskdozer »

tombert wrote: post #83
andrewflnr wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A passive-aggressive interview "question" is a hilariously bad example of "directness". Nah dude, you were just a jerk.

Probably. I would argue that showing up extremely late for an interview that you scheduled is considerably more jerk-ish. It also wasn’t passive aggressive, or at least it wasn’t intended to be. I actually wanted to know if that was just a thing that was common in the company so I could plan accordingly.

Saying something like "Actually, I felt it was unprofessional and disrespectful to not have the interview start at the agreed-upon time" would also be direct, no? The way it's written sounds way more inflammatory.

Re: I beg you to follow Crocker's Rules, even if you will be rude to me

#123

Post by dxdm »

eucyclos wrote: post #90
jandrewrogers wrote: post #75

This post is a poor exposition of Crocker’s Rules. Crocker’s Rules were a reaction to the avoidance of direct discussion of topics where some people treat the mere act of discussion in any capacity as offensive. Sacred cows and taboos for which there are social consequences even when asking honest questions. Crocker’s Rules, practically speaking, were a declaration that no good faith discussion was intrinsically offe…

This sounds like a refutation of the concept of taboos as a useful category, by the definition I use a taboo is something that may not be discussed openly. There's a theory that a culture without taboos is past it's peak in some important way- does crocker have any response to that criticism?

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that taboos should not be examined from within the space where they hold effect, because doing so calls into question the whole concept of a taboo and robs all taboos of their usefulness, and that would summon evidence for, or even cause cultural decline?

That sounds suspiciously like something a taboo would say that has something to fear from being looked at. ;)

I think this chain of reasoning is made of links that do not self-evidently follow. From my lay perspective, taboos seem more complex, resilient and variable to require a perfectly dogmatic approach to hold up. If they were this easy to bring down, they'd all be gone.

I'm also not sure what a "culture without taboos" is, or one has ever existed. Also, what is meant by "peak"? Is there an optimal amount or set of taboos? How do cultures with taboo-ical differences (and their peaks) compare to each other across space and time?

I think it is good and healthy to approach taboos with curiosity, whether it is to interrogate them or to appreciate them more.

Re: I beg you to follow Crocker's Rules, even if you will be rude to me

#124

Post by Springtime »

kelnos wrote: post #95

I'd love to say that I value directness, but I frankly just kinda don't, for the most part. I don't want people to overly obfuscate what they are saying or beat around the bush, but... I have feelings. Often my feelings aren't rational. Often I have feelings about things when I should be more detached. But that's just how I am. I don't want someone to come up to me and say, "Your code is wrong; you should have done A…

> I don't want someone to come up to me and say, "Your code is wrong; you should have done ABC". I want them to say "Hey, I ran into a problem with your code. I think here on line 123 you meant to do ABC but you did XYZ by accident. What do you think?"

It's also a sign of good faith and tentative analysis since while that example sounds cut and dry sometimes context/details can be overlooked even those familiar with something.

Even in the article while the headline and main text suggest they'd be happy with bluntness to the point of rudeness the actual full examples at the end show the language used is merely succinct while still being helpful, with the second example also substituting the more direct 'you' for the diffused 'we'.

Re: I beg you to follow Crocker's Rules, even if you will be rude to me

#126

Post by rendaw »

eucyclos wrote: post #90
jandrewrogers wrote: post #75

This post is a poor exposition of Crocker’s Rules. Crocker’s Rules were a reaction to the avoidance of direct discussion of topics where some people treat the mere act of discussion in any capacity as offensive. Sacred cows and taboos for which there are social consequences even when asking honest questions. Crocker’s Rules, practically speaking, were a declaration that no good faith discussion was intrinsically offe…

This sounds like a refutation of the concept of taboos as a useful category, by the definition I use a taboo is something that may not be discussed openly. There's a theory that a culture without taboos is past it's peak in some important way- does crocker have any response to that criticism?

I've heard of taboos forbidding discussion in religious contexts, for religious (superstitious) reasons, but what definition of taboo are you using that it doesn't just mean "forbidden"?

There's a taboo to marrying your blood sibling, but discussing such marriages is fine. If a culture generally allowed marrying such a sibling I think it'd be past its peak, maybe. But I don't see how discussing it would contribute to that.

Re: I beg you to follow Crocker's Rules, even if you will be rude to me

#127

Post by gilleain »

rkomorn wrote: post #109
jiggawatts wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I subscribe to the thesis of Death of the Author , that just because someone came up with something, it doesn't necessarily given them a permanent special privilege in its interpretation. Everybody can understand the work as they prefer, and if anything, the work takes on a life of its own in greater society and evolves together with it. (Hence the limits on the duration of copyright.) This is why many common idioms…

> the subject is the code/system/product/organisation, which has no feelings and hence can't be offended This is like saying that telling someone their artwork sucks is not offensive because "the artwork has no feelings."

Someone's artwork _should_ be possible to (negatively) criticise. Of course, just saying "it sucks" is not constructive or helpful.

You can definitely hurt someone's feeling with unconstructive criticism of thier art. However, pointing out areas to improve should not be too painful to the artist, as they can make newer, better works.

I suppose a difficuly can arise if people get too attached to things they make (art, code, writing, whatever) and don't see any one thing as just a step on the road to even better things.

Re: I beg you to follow Crocker's Rules, even if you will be rude to me

#128

Post by smartbit »

manbitesdog wrote: post #15

Maybe this is a bit US-centric, direct negative feedback is very common in many cultures, e.g. Dutch

IMHO the Dutch are more direct for the same reason they are less sensitive to authority and approach their superiors as equals.

Netherlands effectively being a River Delta, there always was the threat of water, a force greater than anyone. IOW if a flood comes, both the king and the peasant start digging.

This is completely different from neighboring countries UK and Germany, which both traditionally had strong sense of hierarchy and not contradicting the master.

Re: I beg you to follow Crocker's Rules, even if you will be rude to me

#129

Post by comboy »

jerbearito wrote: post #58
treetalker wrote: post #34

> The person invoking Crocker's Rules is saying, in effect, "your feelings about how I might receive this are your problem to manage, not mine, just give me the information." Isn't it quite the opposite? The person invoking Crocker's Rules is saying, in effect, " my feelings about the information and how I might receive it are my problem to manage, not yours , just give me the information."

Yes, but it's also both. Everyone should manage their own feelings and exchange information both efficiently and respectfully.

That's your worldview. Crocker's rules is that you don't have to take receiver feelings into account you just communicate efficently.

Re: I beg you to follow Crocker's Rules, even if you will be rude to me

#130

Post by Anthony-G »

normie3000 wrote: post #108
jiggawatts wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I subscribe to the thesis of Death of the Author , that just because someone came up with something, it doesn't necessarily given them a permanent special privilege in its interpretation. Everybody can understand the work as they prefer, and if anything, the work takes on a life of its own in greater society and evolves together with it. (Hence the limits on the duration of copyright.) This is why many common idioms…

> "I could care less" Do people really say this? Is it exclusive? I've only heard the inverse: "I couldn't care less". Edit: genuine question. Please explain downvotes!

I assumed it was an American thing. I've never heard anyone on this side of the Atlantic say it – even though Americanisms are being adopted more by the younger generations who are more influenced by online culture.
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