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Why it is Awesome to be a Girl in Tech

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Re: Why it is Awesome to be a Girl in Tech

#191

Post by kalkin »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #169
kalkin wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not going to spend too much time on this because I'm getting the sense that your request for an explanation was disingenuous. But: actually misleading There's a difference between "imperfect metaphor" and "misleading". higher proportion of hard-mode players choosing Paladin over Necromancer You make it sound as if each woman has individually and arbitrarily chosen to earn less. That's not the way it works, and th…

I don't know what you mean by "disingenuous" - in what regard do you think I'm attempting to mislead? I asked about the meme because I truly didn't understand what it meant, in spite of hearing it used many times here. Now that I understand it I have formed an opinion on it (namely that it is misleading). Is there something wrong with this? You make it sound as if each woman has individually and arbitrarily chosen to…

attempting to mislead

You've moved the goalposts from explaining a metaphor to "quantify[ing] all such traits and trends." I can Google to find sources for statistics, but so can you. Here's a starting point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male%E2%80%93female_income_disp...

(The section on "Explaining the gender pay gap" answers your later request for evidence quite thoroughly.)

For example, women choose web design over programming and HR over trading. Women choose to leave the workforce more than men.

The fact that women end up in these professions is bad evidence that they prefer them, much less that they naturally prefer them independent of social expectations. A few factors to consider off the top of my head: * Hiring bias * Differential tracking by family, teachers, and mentors * Hostile working environments or a fear of such * Differences in which related basic skills people are taught (self-confidence, 'nurturing' vs 'making')

Re: Why it is Awesome to be a Girl in Tech

#192

Post by blazay_blazay »

jrogers65 wrote: post #111
EliRivers wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"That looks like sexism to me." You say that as if letting someone's gender affect your decisions is somehow, magically, inherently always ALWAYS wrong. It isn't. Some situations it is. Some situations it is not.

I'd just like to express my astonishment and disgust at the fact that there are people who defend sexism and prejudice in this day and age. People like you make me ashamed to be human.

So you are opposed to separate male and female lavatories?

Re: Why it is Awesome to be a Girl in Tech

#193

Post by TheCapn »

This is a weird subject. I think, as a social group, we're on a hinging point where women will be making equal footing in the tech industry, but haven't yet. Its coming.

Women are going to get disproportionate treatment during this transition in one or two different ways, and it depends on who they're interacting with. Should they land themselves alongside the stereotypical basement dweller they'll be cast aside and thought less of. They'll first need to prove themselves in an uphill battle. This will take great self confidence because there is a lot of misogyny still in the tech workplace. Too many tech gurus grew up being shunned socially and still have those emotional barriers preventing them from being rational and fair.

On the other swing of things though we have the opposite treatment: "A girl? Oooo!" I feel jealous sometimes of my female friends in the industry because of just how easy getting face to face for new jobs comes for them. I fight to keep myself in check because they're damn good professionals who deserve it but the thought remains: what sets them apart from me? Directly out of university I was competing locally with a lot of them for jobs and the treatment of women in the profession was quite apparent. I still see it a bit in my jobs now and its slightly disheartening.

Ultimately I think this problem will solve itself in time. Tech jobs aren't about the basement dweller anymore, they haven't been for years. The natural transition where everyone in the workforce has been part of it for the years where equal woman representation has been around and the awkward or preferential treatment is happening. We need vocal women to encourage more to join. Those classes in university will definitely be unsettling when 20 slobbering unkempt males are trying to wrestle their way to the only female group partner but to push through is going to be tough.

Re: Why it is Awesome to be a Girl in Tech

#194

Post by kalkin »

jrogers65 wrote: post #171
kalkin wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many people ... who don't know what institutional racism looks like. (One requirement would probably be that the discriminated-against group actually ends up with worse outcomes. Compare to say, Black people in the criminal justice system.) I mean, seriously, even if you oppose affirmative action, do you really want to say that its advocates are morally equivalent to racial oppressors and make you ashamed of humanity…

Perhaps our definitions of institutional racism differ but I'm going by the dictionary definition: >Accepted social arrangements that exclude on the basis of race. Source: http://dictionary.babylon.com/institutional_racism/ As such, affirmative action fits the bill. Martin Luther King Jr preached that since whites had actively harmed blacks through the practice of slavery, they should do something special to fix it.…

I don't think "here's the dictionary definition" is usually a useful argument, but in any case it's hard for me to see affirmative action as "excluding" white people, since it's generally practiced in fields where they remain dominant.

I agree that in a world where racial discrimination is a thing of the distant past, affirmative action wouldn't make sense. But that's not our world. See for example: http://scholar.harvard.edu/mullainathan/files/emilygreg.pdf

Re: Why it is Awesome to be a Girl in Tech

#195

Post by illuminate »

Goronmon wrote: post #167
JonnieCache wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just wanted to echo this. 99% of the hackers/programmers/whatever I've met, whether in industry or at university have been pretty normal. In fact, the cleverest and most productive ones have tended to be more socially successful, not less. Tech people I've met actually tend to have more enlightened views on women/gender than the population at large. Where it does start to get weird, in my experience, is when it start…

Some of those people are really maladjusted, but I suppose that's to be expected from a subculture based around endlessly celebrating childrens toys. I guess there always has to be a group of people for others to look down upon.

They were not saying that all people who collect figures and display them are manchildren.

Re: Why it is Awesome to be a Girl in Tech

#196

Post by coroxout »

michaelochurch wrote: post #121
rmc wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(a) In your hypothetical example, everyone seems to be heterosexual. I assure you reality doesn't fully match your theory. (b) It's just an "attractive female" advantage, "attractive men" have been found to have similar advantages.

(a) In your hypothetical example, everyone seems to be heterosexual. I assure you reality doesn't fully match your theory. I'm talking about social status and "coolness" which are not identical to sexual "market value". In fact, I think it's a bad idea for women to exploit any sexual "assets", because a woman who is visibly trying to do so won't be taken seriously. I'm talking about a more general-purpose social asse…

I think your hypothetical attractive 23y/o woman who goes into the office of a middle-aged manager who barely knows who she is and comes out with a better job will be very much rumoured to have "exploited" her "sexual 'assets'", whether she has or not, and that in itself is dangerous for her social status.

I'm also not totally sure that youth is such a negative for a man's social status in the workplace. I can think of a few charismatic young men I've seen get disproportionately (disproportionate to performance) far up the ladder. And maybe I'm mistaken, but terms like "rock star programmer" seem to invoke the cult of youth - in my mind it implies a hip young gunslinger.

Re: Why it is Awesome to be a Girl in Tech

#197

Post by illuminate »

crusso wrote: post #161
vacri wrote: post #35

I (100% female) work as a web developer and are not sure if the lack of female colleagues bothers me or not. Political correctness dictates that it should Political correctness isn't really about groupthink or how you should feel. It's about not making other people feel shitty because you're too lazy to use inclusive language. It's simply an extension of 'manners', and gets demonised when it shouldn't be.

Political Correctness is about hypersensitivity to possible insult to the point that using direct and clear communication is frowned upon in the public discourse. Political Correctness is an extraordinarily sad advance of style over substance that has attempted to address the language used to describe problems in our society over actually addressing the problems themselves. Ultimately, Political Correctness is yet an…

Your assumption that "direct and clear communication" requires that you use offensive and exclusive phrasings is false, and your complaints about your inability to exert "power" over others are unmoving.

"they've had so much trouble trying to legislate against the First Amendment"

If you believe proper behavior has anything to do with the First Amendment it would do you better to read the US Constitution.

Re: Why it is Awesome to be a Girl in Tech

#198

Post by illuminate »

gprasanth wrote: post #63

"Guys are fascinated and scared by girls who roll up their sleeves and take on a job that society labels as “men’s work”" I always opined that, "women have a lot of emotional strength". You can just imagine how difficult it is to take care of, and raise a toddler. It is so hard. But, somehow women are naturally good at this, and I am just as fascinated by this fact.

"It is so hard. But, somehow women are naturally good at this, and I am just as fascinated by this fact."

Have you never interacted with a single father?

Re: Why it is Awesome to be a Girl in Tech

#199

Post by yummyfajitas »

rmc wrote: post #182
yummyfajitas wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not remotely close to what "easy mode" and "hard mode" mean in video games. I'm now convinced this meme should die since it obscures more than it helps. Hard mode is not "elevated chance of Balrog attacks, reduced chance of Death Knight attacks". And as you correctly note, the statistical reference class of men have it easier (in some regards), and harder in other regards. For example: "If a straight woman wi…

This is not remotely close to what "easy mode" and "hard mode" mean in video games. … Hard mode is not "elevated chance of Balrog attacks, reduced chance of Death Knight attacks". Yes it is. Some video games have "the enemies are easier on you" and "bad things less likely to happen" as factors that are controlled by easy mode/hard mode. Anyway, it's just an analogy. And as you correctly note, the statistical referenc…

Some video games have "the enemies are easier on you" and "bad things less likely to happen" as factors that are controlled by easy mode/hard mode.

Yes, hard mode also comes with a bit of extra critical hit vulnerability. I can't think of a single game where the law of large numbers doesn't come into play by the end of the level. I.e., it's more difficult for every single person playing hard mode than for every single person playing easy mode.

In contrast, what you are talking about (if correct) is much better described as "women are somewhat more likely to play life in hard mode than men".

The important question is to tot these all up.

So far no one has attempted this for the modern world, at least as far as I've seen.

Re: Why it is Awesome to be a Girl in Tech

#200

Post by sp332 »

zxcdw wrote: post #164
dpritchett wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> b: There's no "attractive male" advantage to be found in tech, at least not compared to "attractive female" advantage as your parent explained. Here's an excerpt from Vanity Fair's take on YC: Today, Jason Shen is a different speaker, one who exudes confidence. As he approaches the dais, the former collegiate gymnast does a cartwheel. “I thought you guys need a little pick-me-up or something,” he says, and goes int…

How does this compare to a "attractive female" advantage a girl has in an otherwise-100 % male startup for example? Of course, being fit, in a good shape both physically and mentally are - always - indisputable advantages over those who lack such qualities. However, this completely misses the point that an attractive female has such a tremendous control over the social structure within the company that it alone is so…

It's a question of being "cool", so I think (as it was put) "average-or-better" looking woman has as much cool-factor as a somewhat better-looking man.
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