Why it is Awesome to be a Girl in Tech • Hacker News Board

Re: Why it is Awesome to be a Girl in Tech

#161

Post by crusso » Fri, Nov 02, 2012, 2:41 PM UTC

vacri wrote: post #35

I (100% female) work as a web developer and are not sure if the lack of female colleagues bothers me or not. Political correctness dictates that it should Political correctness isn't really about groupthink or how you should feel. It's about not making other people feel shitty because you're too lazy to use inclusive language. It's simply an extension of 'manners', and gets demonised when it shouldn't be.

Political Correctness is about hypersensitivity to possible insult to the point that using direct and clear communication is frowned upon in the public discourse.

Political Correctness is an extraordinarily sad advance of style over substance that has attempted to address the language used to describe problems in our society over actually addressing the problems themselves.

Ultimately, Political Correctness is yet another societal/political power grab in an attempt to control the very words that come out of everyones' mouths. Free speech is just too much individual power for many Utopians in society, but they've had so much trouble trying to legislate against the First Amendment[or other country's free speech protection]. Political Correctness is the next best thing for them, I guess.

Re: Why it is Awesome to be a Girl in Tech

#162

Post by kalkin » Fri, Nov 02, 2012, 3:00 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #151

kalkin wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain this in concrete terms? Women still make 77 cents to the male dollar. Women have much higher incidences of anxiety and depression disorders. Women are substantially more likely to be the victims of domestic violence, and 1 in 5 are raped. Etc etc. These statistics don't guarantee that every woman is worse off than every man - clearly that's not true - but they do mean that women have, on average, more…

Women still make 77 cents to the male dollar. Women have much higher incidences of anxiety and depression disorders...[etc] Whereas men have much higher incidences of other personality traits and are more likely to be victims of violent crime in general (particularly homicide). Until you quantify all such traits and trends, you can't conclude one group is (statistically) operating on "easy mode". In any case, based o…

I'm not going to spend too much time on this because I'm getting the sense that your request for an explanation was disingenuous. But:

actually misleading

There's a difference between "imperfect metaphor" and "misleading".

higher proportion of hard-mode players choosing Paladin over Necromancer

You make it sound as if each woman has individually and arbitrarily chosen to earn less. That's not the way it works, and the fact that women are paid less within the same profession too is only one of the reasons.

the root cause is unkind treatment, depression and violent crime

That's not what I said at all.

Re: Why it is Awesome to be a Girl in Tech

#163

Post by girlvinyl » Fri, Nov 02, 2012, 3:03 PM UTC

scotty79 wrote: post #92

sandollars wrote: post #34

Progress is being made, but there is still a long way to go. This happened in a talk at a programming/web/tech event two weeks ago: http://i.imgur.com/4hL6X.jpg

Do tech women identify somehow with this girl in the picture and feel offended? When guy sees some looser made fun of on some picture he thinks: "Hehe. What a looser!" as he sees almost no resemblance between him and the looser. Does women feel more strongly connected to other women because of shared gender than men?

This image is implying that women are objects to be bought and sold and "controlled". Thus the currency. That's why it's offensive. Women are not "objects" to be controlled or bought. It has nothing to do with solidarity.

Also, your example talks about "making fun of" someone. The image in the OOP example is reducing a woman's personhood to nothing but that of an object. It is intended to mock her existence and imply that she has no personal agency beyond what a man would choose to control her with.

Re: Why it is Awesome to be a Girl in Tech

#164

Post by zxcdw » Fri, Nov 02, 2012, 3:07 PM UTC

dpritchett wrote: post #155

zxcdw wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a: Taking sexual orientation into question plays no good for anybody especially since it's completely individual aspect. b: There's no "attractive male" advantage to be found in tech, at least not compared to "attractive female" advantage as your parent explained.

> b: There's no "attractive male" advantage to be found in tech, at least not compared to "attractive female" advantage as your parent explained. Here's an excerpt from Vanity Fair's take on YC: Today, Jason Shen is a different speaker, one who exudes confidence. As he approaches the dais, the former collegiate gymnast does a cartwheel. “I thought you guys need a little pick-me-up or something,” he says, and goes int…

How does this compare to a "attractive female" advantage a girl has in an otherwise-100 % male startup for example?

Of course, being fit, in a good shape both physically and mentally are - always - indisputable advantages over those who lack such qualities. However, this completely misses the point that an attractive female has such a tremendous control over the social structure within the company that it alone is something no single man, regardless of how confident, how superior physically and mentally, can never have. Of course it's another question how a girl can take an advantage of this, if at all.

Re: Why it is Awesome to be a Girl in Tech

#165

Post by kalkin » Fri, Nov 02, 2012, 3:08 PM UTC

jrogers65 wrote: post #139

kalkin wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jeez, as far as I can tell the person you're replying to is just defending affirmative action.

Many people argue that affirmative action is institutionalized racism.

Many people

... who don't know what institutional racism looks like. (One requirement would probably be that the discriminated-against group actually ends up with worse outcomes. Compare to say, Black people in the criminal justice system.)

I mean, seriously, even if you oppose affirmative action, do you really want to say that its advocates are morally equivalent to racial oppressors and make you ashamed of humanity? Martin Luther King, Jr. makes you ashamed of humanity?

Re: Why it is Awesome to be a Girl in Tech

#166

Post by kalkin » Fri, Nov 02, 2012, 3:11 PM UTC

tete wrote: post #156

This is maybe the best article I've ever found on HN.

It is a good article, but it's sad that even in a good article like this, which talks explicitly about the realities of sexism, the author feels the need to distance herself from "the feminists."

Re: Why it is Awesome to be a Girl in Tech

#167

Post by Goronmon » Fri, Nov 02, 2012, 3:11 PM UTC

JonnieCache wrote: post #79

atomical wrote: post #4

"This is a bit of a delicate topic. Quite often I am the only female person in the team and have to be careful not to take advantage of the perks that come with it. Guys are fascinated and scared by girls who roll up their sleeves and take on a job that society labels as “men’s work”. If you’ve ever drilled a hole, skinned a rabbit, or changed a tyre you know what I mean. As I mentioned earlier, guys will definitely…

Just wanted to echo this. 99% of the hackers/programmers/whatever I've met, whether in industry or at university have been pretty normal. In fact, the cleverest and most productive ones have tended to be more socially successful, not less. Tech people I've met actually tend to have more enlightened views on women/gender than the population at large. Where it does start to get weird, in my experience, is when it start…

Some of those people are really maladjusted, but I suppose that's to be expected from a subculture based around endlessly celebrating childrens toys.

I guess there always has to be a group of people for others to look down upon.

Re: Why it is Awesome to be a Girl in Tech

#168

Post by mnicole » Fri, Nov 02, 2012, 3:17 PM UTC

scotty79 wrote: post #92

sandollars wrote: post #34

Progress is being made, but there is still a long way to go. This happened in a talk at a programming/web/tech event two weeks ago: http://i.imgur.com/4hL6X.jpg

Do tech women identify somehow with this girl in the picture and feel offended? When guy sees some looser made fun of on some picture he thinks: "Hehe. What a looser!" as he sees almost no resemblance between him and the looser. Does women feel more strongly connected to other women because of shared gender than men?

It's offensive because it's lazy. There are better analogies and ways of conveying these concepts that don't objectify 50% of the population.

If I'm one of the only girls in the room, and that is how a point is being made in a presentation by someone that supposedly has enough clout in the industry to go up in front of hundreds of people and talk, it doesn't make me feel good about my future or the people I will report to down the line, nor does it make me feel comfortable knowing that this type of humor is acceptable and welcomed by the amount of laughs it gets.

There's also going to be a few people in the audience that look at this image and then look at me to see what my reaction is, and I'm there to learn, not stand out.

Re: Why it is Awesome to be a Girl in Tech

#169

Post by yummyfajitas » Fri, Nov 02, 2012, 3:22 PM UTC

kalkin wrote: post #162

yummyfajitas wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Women still make 77 cents to the male dollar. Women have much higher incidences of anxiety and depression disorders...[etc] Whereas men have much higher incidences of other personality traits and are more likely to be victims of violent crime in general (particularly homicide). Until you quantify all such traits and trends, you can't conclude one group is (statistically) operating on "easy mode". In any case, based o…

I'm not going to spend too much time on this because I'm getting the sense that your request for an explanation was disingenuous. But: actually misleading There's a difference between "imperfect metaphor" and "misleading". higher proportion of hard-mode players choosing Paladin over Necromancer You make it sound as if each woman has individually and arbitrarily chosen to earn less. That's not the way it works, and th…

I don't know what you mean by "disingenuous" - in what regard do you think I'm attempting to mislead? I asked about the meme because I truly didn't understand what it meant, in spite of hearing it used many times here.

Now that I understand it I have formed an opinion on it (namely that it is misleading). Is there something wrong with this?

You make it sound as if each woman has individually and arbitrarily chosen to earn less.

Yes. For example, women choose web design over programming and HR over trading. Women choose to leave the workforce more than men. Analogously, women choose Paladin over Necromancer.

If you have evidence that women are pervasively paid less within the same profession for the same skill and experience levels, feel free to cite it. Better yet, arb it. But your $0.77/1.00 is a national figure and controls for nothing.

Re: Why it is Awesome to be a Girl in Tech

#170

Post by scotty79 » Fri, Nov 02, 2012, 3:25 PM UTC

grey-area wrote: post #153

scotty79 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do tech women identify somehow with this girl in the picture and feel offended? When guy sees some looser made fun of on some picture he thinks: "Hehe. What a looser!" as he sees almost no resemblance between him and the looser. Does women feel more strongly connected to other women because of shared gender than men?

I'd feel offended if presented with this sort of nonsense at a tech talk. The implication of the picture, given the structure and history of our society, is that women are there to be pretty and submissive and men are there to control women with money. That and it makes absolutely no sense as an analogy for MVC, it's just a cheap shot in an attempt to titillate an assumed audience of sexist men. So yes, women in an a…

Thanks for the correction. Sorry. Not native speaker. Spellchecker didn't kick in.

Maybe I'm desensitized to gender issues because I never disrespected a woman for being a woman, and never noticed any adult during my childhood who did that even jokingly but I can imagine conference room of techy women with female presenter showing this picture and all laughing partly exactly because it has nothing to do with MVC and absurd humor is always funny and also because the girl in the picture is obviously inferior to the women in the room even though she could be better off if she learned useful stuff properly like they did and led independent life like they do. I am aware that this probably won't happen anywhere in another 50 years or so.

Personally I hate inappropriate jokes in public appearances because they make presenter look silly and in some twisted form of empathy I feel the shame that presenter should feel.

This joke made me laugh probably because I'm in front of the computer following anonymous link not in the room full of people seeing some boring poor chap desperately trying to lighten the mood. I was mostly amused by the View part, then the Model, not at all at the Controller. I'm so indoorsy (and living in non english speaking country) that when I'm thinking of View the thing that you can see on holidays is one of the last things that come to my mind. I don't own a TV and don't follow celebrity gossip and/or fashion so the connection between what I know as Model and being a model as occupation was also hard for me to make. Controller was I think the easiest (so already least funny) because money is a mean to control a lot (your life for example) also controlling people of opposite gender with money brings "eww.." factor that spoils the joke. 2 out of 3 ... so somewhat funny.

Sorry for trolling you with insensitive question.