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Warn about PyPy being unmaintained

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Re: Warn about PyPy being unmaintained

#41

Post by jorvi »

_zagj wrote: post #19

Odd how you still see announcements of this nature if Anthropic's marketing is be believed.

Yup.

For me the biggest signifier is Spotify. They claim their (best) devs don't even code anymore, they use an internal AI tool that they just send prompts to which then checks out a personal test build that they can download off of Slack. "A new feature in 10 minutes!"

Okay, if that is the case, why have we only seen like 3-4 minor new QoL improvements in Spotify the last ~12 months, with no new grand features? And why haven't they fired 95% of their devs and let the remaining elite go buckwild with Claude?

The Emperor really has no clothes.

Re: Warn about PyPy being unmaintained

#42

Post by toxik »

mattip wrote: post #38
pansa2 wrote: post #26

PyPy is a fantastic achievement and deserves far more support than it gets. Microsoft’s “Faster CPython” team tried to make Python 5x faster but only achieved ~1.5x in four years - meanwhile PyPy has been running at over 5x faster for decades. On the other hand, I always got the impression that the main goal of PyPy is to be a research project (on meta-tracing, STM etc) rather than a replacement for CPython in produc…

Third party libraries like SciPy scikit-learn, pandas, tensorflow and pytorch have been critical to python’s success. Since CPython is written in C and exposes a nice C API, those libraries can leverage it to quickly move from (slow) python to (fast) C/C++, hitting an optimum between speed of development and speed of runtime. PyPy’s alternative, CFFI, was not attractive enough for the big players to adopt. And HPy, a…

PyPy on numpy heavy code is often a lot slower than CPython

Re: Warn about PyPy being unmaintained

#43

Post by cfbolztereick »

PyPy isn't unmaintained. We are certainly fixing bugs and are occasionally improving the jit. However, the remaining core devs (me among them) don't have the capacity to keep up with cpython. So for supporting new cpython versions we'll need new people to step up. For 3.12 this has started, we have a new contributor who is pushing this along.

Re: Warn about PyPy being unmaintained

#45

Post by blitzar »

Hamuko wrote: post #35
croddin wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don’t need to throw a stack of cash at them, Anthropic and OpenAI have programs for open source maintainers. https://claude.com/contact-sales/claude-for-oss https://openai.com/form/codex-for-oss/

I'd say they're less of "programs" as they are "six-month trials". What's the plan after six months? And for what's it worth, PyPy isn't even eligible for the Claude trial because they have a meager 1700 stars on GitHub.

> What's the plan after six months?

An unmaintainable mass of Ai slop code and the decision to either pay the ai tax or abandon the project.

Re: Warn about PyPy being unmaintained

#46

Post by tpoacher »

the_jeremy wrote: post #4

If anyone else is also barely aware and confused by the similar names, PyPI is the Python Package Index, which is up and maintained. PyPy is "A fast, compliant alternative implementation of Python." which doesn't have enough devs to release a version for 3.12[0]. [0]: https://github.com/orgs/pypy/discussions/5145

and mypy is "an optional static type checker for Python" [0]

Given that both pypy (through RPython) and mypy deal with static type checks in some sense, I kept confusing the two projects until recently.

Also, I just learnt (from another comment in this post) about mypyc [1], which seems to complete the circle somehow in my mind.

  [0] https://www.mypy-lang.org/
  [1] https://github.com/mypyc/mypyc

Re: Warn about PyPy being unmaintained

#47

Post by cjfd »

the_jeremy wrote: post #4

If anyone else is also barely aware and confused by the similar names, PyPI is the Python Package Index, which is up and maintained. PyPy is "A fast, compliant alternative implementation of Python." which doesn't have enough devs to release a version for 3.12[0]. [0]: https://github.com/orgs/pypy/discussions/5145

The short summary of it being that these people are beyond terrible at giving names to things.

Re: Warn about PyPy being unmaintained

#48

Post by networked »

QQ00 wrote: post #32
_zagj wrote: post #19

Odd how you still see announcements of this nature if Anthropic's marketing is be believed.

Anthropic released vibe coded C compiler that doesn't work, how their LLM can help in maintaining PyPy?

Strange subthread. I don't see Claude Opus 4.6 changing the tide for PyPy. There is no need to understate AI capabilities for this.

"Anthropic released vibe coded C compiler that doesn't work" sounds like https://github.com/anthropics/claudes-c-compiler/issues/1 passed through a game of telephone. The compiler has some wrong defaults that prevent it from straightforwardly building a "Hello, world!" like GCC and Clang. The compiler works:

> The 100,000-line compiler can build a bootable Linux 6.9 on x86, ARM, and RISC-V. It can also compile QEMU, FFmpeg, SQlite, postgres, redis, and has a 99% pass rate on most compiler test suites including the GCC torture test suite. It also passes the developer's ultimate litmus test: it can compile and run Doom.

https://www.anthropic.com/engineering/building-c-compiler

Re: Warn about PyPy being unmaintained

#49

Post by justinclift »

croddin wrote: post #31
Hamuko wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most maintainers don't have a stack of cash to throw at tokens.

They don’t need to throw a stack of cash at them, Anthropic and OpenAI have programs for open source maintainers. https://claude.com/contact-sales/claude-for-oss https://openai.com/form/codex-for-oss/

Isn't the Claude one only for a few months?

(I haven't checked the OpenAI one, as I have no interest in them)

Re: Warn about PyPy being unmaintained

#50

Post by riedel »

QQ00 wrote: post #32
_zagj wrote: post #19

Odd how you still see announcements of this nature if Anthropic's marketing is be believed.

Anthropic released vibe coded C compiler that doesn't work, how their LLM can help in maintaining PyPy?

> Anthropic released vibe coded C compiler that doesn't work, how their LLM can help in maintaining PyPy?

This is the perfect question to highlight the major players. In my opinion, a rapidly developing language with a clear reference implementation, readily accessible specifications, and a vast number of easily runnable tests would make an ideal benchmark.

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