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Bootstrap 2.2.0 released

blog.getbootstrap.com

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Re: Bootstrap 2.2.0 released

#121

Post by papsosouid »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #119
papsosouid wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Looking at Wikipedia[0], a framework is a set of generic functions/tools that can be changed by the user to fit their needs. Yeah, that's the definition I was going on too. It doesn't seem like it describes bootstrap to me any more than it describes every stylesheet ever made. The nature of CSS is that you can override previously defined styles. When I see "CSS framework" my expectation was something like an actual…

I don't know if this makes it fit your definition of "framework" any better, but to create the CSS provided by Bootstrap a "compiler processes some custom language" (they use http://lesscss.org/ ) and you can tweak variables to get different CSS output. You can also "override previously defined styles" but I don't really understand why you would think you couldn't.

>You can also "override previously defined styles" but I don't really understand why you would think you couldn't.

I don't think you couldn't. I just mean that if "you can override styles" makes it a framework, then every stylesheet ever written is a framework. Perhaps I am missing something, but it appears to just use LESS the same way everyone else does (or the same way everyone uses SASS anyhow), just as a simple pre-processor, not to create what I was thinking of as a framework.

Re: Bootstrap 2.2.0 released

#122

Post by papsosouid »

jiggy2011 wrote: post #118
papsosouid wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See my response above. We are talking about web design , not graphic design.

Why is web design so different here? We are still talking about content that is consumed with your eyes.

That is precisely how it is different. We're not talking about content that is just consumed with our eyes. It is consumed by computer programs also. And we need to convey information in a way that those programs can understand. Hiding semantic meaning in classes is bad, as is pushing presentation information into markup. A screen reader has no way to understand that a div with a class of "errormsg" is anything at all. It is just a generic meaningless item. A screen reader can understand that a paragraph tag with a role of "alert" has a specific defined meaning, this is text content indicating an error or warning message. Just as a div with a class of "navbar-fixed-top" is completely meaningless, and a nav tag conveys the specific meaning of "this is a container holding navigation items".

Re: Bootstrap 2.2.0 released

#123

Post by lelandbatey »

papsosouid wrote: post #121
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if this makes it fit your definition of "framework" any better, but to create the CSS provided by Bootstrap a "compiler processes some custom language" (they use http://lesscss.org/ ) and you can tweak variables to get different CSS output. You can also "override previously defined styles" but I don't really understand why you would think you couldn't.

>You can also "override previously defined styles" but I don't really understand why you would think you couldn't. I don't think you couldn't. I just mean that if "you can override styles" makes it a framework, then every stylesheet ever written is a framework. Perhaps I am missing something, but it appears to just use LESS the same way everyone else does (or the same way everyone uses SASS anyhow), just as a simple…

I do agree with you that their choice of label is rather confusing/doesn't fit the best. However, I can't think of a short descriptor for bootstrap that describes:

"BootStrap is a set of generic, reliable, compatible and stylish CSS classes that you are free to use."

Actually, I'd really prefer that right there to be on the front page.

In fact, I'd really love it if most product descriptions were expanded a bit to provide more info. Hmmmm... I think I may write about that.

Re: Bootstrap 2.2.0 released

#124

Post by jiggy2011 »

papsosouid wrote: post #122
jiggy2011 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is web design so different here? We are still talking about content that is consumed with your eyes.

That is precisely how it is different. We're not talking about content that is just consumed with our eyes. It is consumed by computer programs also. And we need to convey information in a way that those programs can understand. Hiding semantic meaning in classes is bad, as is pushing presentation information into markup. A screen reader has no way to understand that a div with a class of "errormsg" is anything at al…

I'm not sure how using a grid system or something like bootstrap is "pushing presentation into markup".

Regardless of whether you use bootstrap or not you are always going to be specifying CSS classes which describe the presentation of elements, not sure how else it can be done?

Screen reader software will generally ignore anything that it doesn't understand or deem irrelevant.

Whenever I have tried screen readers they will say "ok, there's 3 divs with content here. Let's read them out one at a time or just read the headings and wait for the user to select one". How they are arranged in a grid will be irrelevant to the software.

Does bootstrap present some particular problem for screen readers?

You are yet to explain what you think best practices should be here.

Re: Bootstrap 2.2.0 released

#125

Post by papsosouid »

lelandbatey wrote: post #123
papsosouid wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You can also "override previously defined styles" but I don't really understand why you would think you couldn't. I don't think you couldn't. I just mean that if "you can override styles" makes it a framework, then every stylesheet ever written is a framework. Perhaps I am missing something, but it appears to just use LESS the same way everyone else does (or the same way everyone uses SASS anyhow), just as a simple…

I do agree with you that their choice of label is rather confusing/doesn't fit the best. However, I can't think of a short descriptor for bootstrap that describes: "BootStrap is a set of generic, reliable, compatible and stylish CSS classes that you are free to use." Actually, I'd really prefer that right there to be on the front page. In fact, I'd really love it if most product descriptions were expanded a bit to pr…

>Actually, I'd really prefer that right there to be on the front page

Yeah, that would certainly be helpful.

Re: Bootstrap 2.2.0 released

#126

Post by papsosouid »

jiggy2011 wrote: post #124
papsosouid wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is precisely how it is different. We're not talking about content that is just consumed with our eyes. It is consumed by computer programs also. And we need to convey information in a way that those programs can understand. Hiding semantic meaning in classes is bad, as is pushing presentation information into markup. A screen reader has no way to understand that a div with a class of "errormsg" is anything at al…

I'm not sure how using a grid system or something like bootstrap is "pushing presentation into markup". Regardless of whether you use bootstrap or not you are always going to be specifying CSS classes which describe the presentation of elements, not sure how else it can be done? Screen reader software will generally ignore anything that it doesn't understand or deem irrelevant. Whenever I have tried screen readers th…

>Regardless of whether you use bootstrap or not you are always going to be specifying CSS classes which describe the presentation of elements, not sure how else it can be done?

http://coding.smashingmagazine.com/2012/06/19/classes-where-...

>Screen reader software will generally ignore anything that it doesn't understand or deem irrelevant.

Yes, that's the problem. Putting useful information in places where software has no way to understand it.

>Whenever I have tried screen readers they will say "ok, there's 3 divs with content here. Let's read them out one at a time or just read the headings and wait for the user to select one".

And if you had the appropriate tag instead of a meaningless div, it would know what to do. That's the point. Google for semantic html.

Re: Bootstrap 2.2.0 released

#127

Post by jiggy2011 »

papsosouid wrote: post #126
jiggy2011 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure how using a grid system or something like bootstrap is "pushing presentation into markup". Regardless of whether you use bootstrap or not you are always going to be specifying CSS classes which describe the presentation of elements, not sure how else it can be done? Screen reader software will generally ignore anything that it doesn't understand or deem irrelevant. Whenever I have tried screen readers th…

>Regardless of whether you use bootstrap or not you are always going to be specifying CSS classes which describe the presentation of elements, not sure how else it can be done? http://coding.smashingmagazine.com/2012/06/19/classes-where-... >Screen reader software will generally ignore anything that it doesn't understand or deem irrelevant. Yes, that's the problem. Putting useful information in places where software…

> Yes, that's the problem. Putting useful information in places where software has no way to understand it.

You aren't putting "useful information" in the classes, you are putting presentation related information in there, if you are displaying the content non-visually it is irrelevant and can be safely ignored.

Writing semantic HTML is nice for bots and browsers, but there is nothing stopping you from doing this whilst using bootstrap or whatever. Another thing to consider is that bootstrap aims for backwards compatibility so you are going to be restricted by tags that can be supported by old versions of IE etc.

Even if you could write perfect semantic HTML I don't see how that would make it bad practice to organise your pages using grids?

Re: Bootstrap 2.2.0 released

#128

Post by papsosouid »

jiggy2011 wrote: post #127
papsosouid wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Regardless of whether you use bootstrap or not you are always going to be specifying CSS classes which describe the presentation of elements, not sure how else it can be done? http://coding.smashingmagazine.com/2012/06/19/classes-where-... >Screen reader software will generally ignore anything that it doesn't understand or deem irrelevant. Yes, that's the problem. Putting useful information in places where software…

> Yes, that's the problem. Putting useful information in places where software has no way to understand it. You aren't putting "useful information" in the classes, you are putting presentation related information in there, if you are displaying the content non-visually it is irrelevant and can be safely ignored. Writing semantic HTML is nice for bots and browsers, but there is nothing stopping you from doing this whi…

>You aren't putting "useful information" in the classes, you are putting presentation related information in there, if you are displaying the content non-visually it is irrelevant and can be safely ignored.

"This is navigation" is not just presentation, it is real, meaningful information.

>Writing semantic HTML is nice for bots and browsers, but there is nothing stopping you from doing this whilst using bootstrap or whatever

The contortions it would take to make bootstrap work with proper markup would consume far more time than simply writing correct CSS to begin with.

Re: Bootstrap 2.2.0 released

#129

Post by tptacek »

papsosouid wrote: post #110
tptacek wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here you go: http://www.amazon.com/Systems-Graphic-Systeme-Visuele-Gestal...

The fact that I recognize your name solely because you seem to constantly deliberately misrepresent what people say so you can respond with nonsense is rather depressing. That is graphic design, not web design. See how I pointed out that tightly coupling content and presentation is the problem with using grids for web design ? Notice how that book never even touches on the subject? Web design is not just graphic desi…

You'd be a more compelling troll if you chose a different one of my comments to attach this to, since the comment you're replying to is literally just a link to a book.

Re: Bootstrap 2.2.0 released

#130

Post by numbsafari »

papsosouid wrote: post #116
numbsafari wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that answers your question to "how is this a framework" and "what is the value in this?" For many startups who want to get a site up quickly and have it look good and work well on a large number of sites, using something like bootstrap as the basis for their site design is a huge win. In your previous posts you keep mentioning "designers", plural. What if started your own firm and didn't have money for "desig…

>In your previous posts you keep mentioning "designers", plural Yeah, one at a time. I've been doing it for 16 years, I have worked with dozens of designers over that time. I don't have some sort of stable of dozens of designers to choose from or anything. >Or would you maybe look for a solid, easily customized solution that is built around design and coding best practices and that is tested by an active community? B…

> Given that the answer is so simple, it is amazing how many people just wanted to fight about bootstrap for no reason.

You may want to review your original posting and the follow ups that mention your tone.

You say that Grids are unnecessary and bad web design. Given that that is pretty much the opposite of what most practicing graphic designers think is the case, I think it'd be helpful if you could follow up with a few links, articles, examples or data points to back up what you are saying.

I'm curious. Educate me.

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