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Bootstrap 2.2.0 released

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Re: Bootstrap 2.2.0 released

#111

Post by papsosouid »

pixeloution wrote: post #108
papsosouid wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Show me a respected design authority who advocates grids then. "STUPID STUPID STUPID" is not an argument. The fact is, grids tie content to presentation, and are entirely unnecessary. The fact that you think grids is the reason some websites look right and others look wrong is astoundingly ignorant.

Every university visual communications program (graphic design) teaches grids ... for a reason. * http://departments.risd.edu/registrar/web/1112cat.pdf (a number of classes focus on grid systems. this is one of the most respected design programs in the country) * http://graphicdesigntheory.net/Images/DT/Armstrong_GDTsyllabus.pdf * http://pacificgraphicdesign.wordpress.com/courses/graphic-design-ii-2/graphic-design-ii…

See my response above. We are talking about web design, not graphic design.

Re: Bootstrap 2.2.0 released

#112

Post by papsosouid »

pacomerh wrote: post #98
papsosouid wrote: post #46

I'm mainly a backend guy but do some frontend work from time to time. I keep seeing all this talk about a dozen different CSS "frameworks", and I just don't get it. Can someone explain to me what the purpose of these things is? Bootstrap's site for example doesn't even try to tell me what I would want it for, it just says I want it "because its for nerds" (do I have to dress in faux-nerd chic and live in the valley t…

Well, if you actually toke the time to read the docs, you would see the value it has. It has personally saved me many hours of development, and I am a back-end + front-end developer too. Don't just start shooting assumptions about the community that surrounds it without reading the help first. And, no, it doesn't just say "because it's for nerds", it says a whole lot more things, but if you wanted to read them you co…

I said nothing about any community. And yes it does just say "because it is for nerds". Go to the website, the front page has a "Need reasons to love Bootstrap? Look no further.", which is exactly what I was looking for. Except the answers are total non-answers that don't explain it at all, it literally says "cause nerds".

Re: Bootstrap 2.2.0 released

#113

Post by papsosouid »

mixmastamyk wrote: post #89
papsosouid wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Looks like twitter" is just shorter than "looks like every bootstrap website on the internet". My CSS knowledge and skill is very low, I'd rate myself a 2 or a 3 out of 10. I tend to leave the design work to the designers whenever I can. I certainly agree that a default stylesheet is quick and easy, I just didn't realize that's all boostrap is. Now I know the answer to the question everyone keeps asking me ("why are…

I've read your diatribe here and am underwhelmed. However, I was underwhelmed when investigating bootstrap too. Separation of content and presentation sounds good, but a concrete example would be much more convincing. (I do understand the general idea, so pls don't explain it.) I think what I am hearing is that css styles should be applied to tags rather than classes, but am not sure. I suppose your time would be bet…

>I think what I am hearing is that css styles should be applied to tags rather than classes, but am not sure.

As much as possible, yes. Here's a good example of what I mean, although he makes the mistake of taking it to the other extreme ("you should never use a class for anything ever!"):

http://coding.smashingmagazine.com/2012/06/19/classes-where-...

>Do it right, put it on github, give it five years, and people will be laughing at bootstrap sites, while you are racking up consulting fees.

That seems like a rather unfounded assumption. There's already several other CSS "frameworks" that are better than boostrap. What is popular and what is good are seldom strongly correlated.

Re: Bootstrap 2.2.0 released

#114

Post by papsosouid »

lelandbatey wrote: post #78
fatbird wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, now I get it: You're trolling HN. Good for you. You got me.

Please don't use a cop out like this. I don't think that writing someone off is very helpful to the discussion, and it's made worse when you don't explain yourself. To respond to papsosouid: I'll be very honest, I have little experience with most of the skills that others on HN commonly have (lots of code experience, tinkering with projects, etc) so I can only speak to what I think about BootStrap. For me, BootStrap…

>Looking at Wikipedia[0], a framework is a set of generic functions/tools that can be changed by the user to fit their needs.

Yeah, that's the definition I was going on too. It doesn't seem like it describes bootstrap to me any more than it describes every stylesheet ever made. The nature of CSS is that you can override previously defined styles. When I see "CSS framework" my expectation was something like an actual framework, where a compiler processes some custom language to generate the specific CSS you need based off the components provided by the framework. Clearly my interpretation of "framework" is atypical.

Re: Bootstrap 2.2.0 released

#115

Post by bryanlarsen »

tptacek wrote: post #93
papsosouid wrote: post #46

I'm mainly a backend guy but do some frontend work from time to time. I keep seeing all this talk about a dozen different CSS "frameworks", and I just don't get it. Can someone explain to me what the purpose of these things is? Bootstrap's site for example doesn't even try to tell me what I would want it for, it just says I want it "because its for nerds" (do I have to dress in faux-nerd chic and live in the valley t…

And here we have it again: the textbook middlebrow dismissal, anchored to the top of the thread. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4693920 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4714217 The reality of course is that calling Bootstrap a "framework" isn't at all controversial, that you cannot simply mimic it with a "default stylesheet" as suggested by this poster below, that to find a respected source vouching for the u…

Reading papsosouid's other comments in this thread, I think a more accurate description would be "troll".

Re: Bootstrap 2.2.0 released

#116

Post by papsosouid »

numbsafari wrote: post #100
papsosouid wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I said: >I guess the answer really is "if you don't want to or can't design your site, just use twitters design" That is what you are describing, so go right ahead and use boostrap. I was just trying to figure out if there was something more to it, given that it calls itself a "framework" and minor releases of it get posted here for some reason. Those things made me think perhaps I was missing something, and it wa…

I think that answers your question to "how is this a framework" and "what is the value in this?" For many startups who want to get a site up quickly and have it look good and work well on a large number of sites, using something like bootstrap as the basis for their site design is a huge win. In your previous posts you keep mentioning "designers", plural. What if started your own firm and didn't have money for "desig…

>In your previous posts you keep mentioning "designers", plural

Yeah, one at a time. I've been doing it for 16 years, I have worked with dozens of designers over that time. I don't have some sort of stable of dozens of designers to choose from or anything.

>Or would you maybe look for a solid, easily customized solution that is built around design and coding best practices and that is tested by an active community?

Bootstrap is not built around best practices at all, it actively forces you into anti-patterns that best practice is to avoid.

>Do you code your own OS kernel and device drivers as well?

If I were being paid to develop an OS, I certainly would.

>How do you implement a clean grid system that works across browsers and resolutions?

I don't. Grids are entirely unnecessary, and are bad web design. All my sites work fine across browsers, across devices, across resolutions and DPIs, with javascript disabled/unsupported, in screen readers, etc. Note that I've never seen a boostrap site that accomplishes that. Most break on trivial, obvious stuff.

>Are you hand coding your CSS?

Our SCSS, yes.

>or hiring a consulting designer who will probably reuse the code he's already written

Bingo! Where are all these people coming from that haven't already solved this problem a decade ago?

>you can instead use bootstrap

This is all that anyone needed to say. Everyone insisted on trying to fight about this, instead of simply giving me an honest answer: "its just a default design you can use in case you didn't already have one". Given that the answer is so simple, it is amazing how many people just wanted to fight about bootstrap for no reason.

Re: Bootstrap 2.2.0 released

#117

Post by jiggy2011 »

papsosouid wrote: post #109
specialist wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Grids are awesome. So awesome in fact, that I created DesignGridLayout, a Java Swing layout manager. Jean Francois Poilpret has been the project owner for years and extended far beyond my original vision. http://designgridlayout.java.net It has a mostly "fluent API", so you just add components and it mostly figures out columns and spanning widths.

I didn't say grids were bad in general, I said they are bad in web design. The problem of tightly coupling content and presentation, and the hiding semantic meaning that goes with it, doesn't exist in a desktop GUI environment, or in a print ad or flyer, etc. Grids are perfectly fine in those uses.

I don't understand how you are mixing content with presentation by using a grid any more than any other method of design?

With bootstrap you mostly use CSS classes to dictate presentation so you can keep your HTML pretty clean.

If I wanted to make a website with perfect separation of content and presentation, how would I go about it?

Re: Bootstrap 2.2.0 released

#118

Post by jiggy2011 »

papsosouid wrote: post #111
pixeloution wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every university visual communications program (graphic design) teaches grids ... for a reason. * http://departments.risd.edu/registrar/web/1112cat.pdf (a number of classes focus on grid systems. this is one of the most respected design programs in the country) * http://graphicdesigntheory.net/Images/DT/Armstrong_GDTsyllabus.pdf * http://pacificgraphicdesign.wordpress.com/courses/graphic-design-ii-2/graphic-design-ii…

See my response above. We are talking about web design , not graphic design.

Why is web design so different here? We are still talking about content that is consumed with your eyes.

Re: Bootstrap 2.2.0 released

#119

Post by ZeroGravitas »

papsosouid wrote: post #114
lelandbatey wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't use a cop out like this. I don't think that writing someone off is very helpful to the discussion, and it's made worse when you don't explain yourself. To respond to papsosouid: I'll be very honest, I have little experience with most of the skills that others on HN commonly have (lots of code experience, tinkering with projects, etc) so I can only speak to what I think about BootStrap. For me, BootStrap…

>Looking at Wikipedia[0], a framework is a set of generic functions/tools that can be changed by the user to fit their needs. Yeah, that's the definition I was going on too. It doesn't seem like it describes bootstrap to me any more than it describes every stylesheet ever made. The nature of CSS is that you can override previously defined styles. When I see "CSS framework" my expectation was something like an actual…

I don't know if this makes it fit your definition of "framework" any better, but to create the CSS provided by Bootstrap a "compiler processes some custom language" (they use http://lesscss.org/) and you can tweak variables to get different CSS output.

You can also "override previously defined styles" but I don't really understand why you would think you couldn't.

Re: Bootstrap 2.2.0 released

#120

Post by latchkey »

fudged71 wrote: post #103
latchkey wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weird, I can reproduce it now. It seems to be something with clicking around to various different ones. I'll report it to the author and see if we can get it fixed. Thanks for giving more information. https://github.com/jschr/bootstrap-modal/issues/8

I don't quite know how to use github yet. Thanks.

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