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Why No AI Games?

franklantz.substack.com

41–50 of 90 posts

Re: Why No AI Games?

#41

> You know what’s fun? A stick. A stick is fun. A ball is fun. Having a body is fun. I think that's one reason why VR has such quick hype/death cycles--it doesn't do a good enough job of fooling your body. Conventional games induce more like a dissociative or hypnotic state where you temporarily forget your body. That can range from very, VERY abstract (like Pong or Pac-Man, or BABA IS YOU), or built on an attempt to…

At Disney, they had an immersive Star Wars VR experience that I don't think is there any more (and was extremely pricey for a session).

They tricked the senses by having physical objects you could touch for every space in the game environment, there was stuff like wind, you could feel the heat of lava radiating off the ground in some spots - and body packs that would jolt you if you got shot, and a physically held "blaster" with haptic feedback.

I was blown away at how good it was and how immersive it felt. But, you need an entirely custom experience and game room and as I said it was very expensive (probably for good reason).

Re: Why No AI Games?

#42
I agree that AI is not as good as people at being entertaining. And everybody looked at putting LLMs in their games as GDC circa 2022 or so. It seemed like a good idea until you realized the server cost or the performance hit. So this is right.

But.. as someone who works in the business of games.. how sure are you that AI hasn't been there all along in ways you may not realize? Companies are very disincentivized to let you know when they are using it.

Re: Why No AI Games?

#43
I did a conferencr talk maybe three years ago on using AI for games.

Since the talk, code, audio,and imagery have progressed leaps and bounds, almost all of the points on active AI use haven't changed much.

You have more capable smaller models now that means you could at least run local models in games, but you still don't get to see what it is going to do before the user does. Developers are acutely aware of the climate. if a game has a fault because the AI does something unexpected, it's not just a bug, It's a news story.

It still cannot be realistically used for multiplayer games. The models are prone to adversarial attacks, which can harm a multiplayer experience.

I did point out at the time that solo sandbox games could benefit. An active AI can be empowering for the player, unchecked empowerment can be great in a solo game. It destroys a multiplayer game.

Then there's just a lack of training in some of the specific areas of games. You pretty much have to filter game state down to text for a llm, I don't yet know of any gameplay embedding model.

I have played around with a little tower defence to see how much an AI can work on gameplay, It essentially has a REPL interface to the game logic where it can take actions and advance the game a tick at a time. It does an ok job, but there's still not much understanding of time and urgency to work with an active environment

Re: Why No AI Games?

#44

> You know what’s fun? A stick. A stick is fun. A ball is fun. Having a body is fun. I think that's one reason why VR has such quick hype/death cycles--it doesn't do a good enough job of fooling your body. Conventional games induce more like a dissociative or hypnotic state where you temporarily forget your body. That can range from very, VERY abstract (like Pong or Pac-Man, or BABA IS YOU), or built on an attempt to…

I think there's a certain antipathy between "hustle culture" and gaming https://components.news/the-gamer-and-the-nihilist/ that is is, people who are caught in AI FOMO are performatively trying to appear to be productive and that's the opposite of fun.

Anyone who has worked on a game knows it is a long, painful slog to the finish line. AI dev is promising the exact opposite: minimal prompts and the agent does all the slog.

Even if AI can whip up a quick demo or prototype for a game, it is the long-tail of tedious details that a passionate person has to hammer away on that separates what ships from what dies. I'm guessing most AI opportunists are looking for quick wins.

I still think it is only a matter of time before someone with the passion hammers an AI to get a game to market.

Re: Why No AI Games?

#45

This has been discussed ad nauseum in other places here over the years, but basically I don't think the conclusions in the post are correct. It does not make a whole lot of sense to let an AI determine story, whether it be dialogue, changing the game state, or whatever. The reason basically being a few things - one, the fundamental aspect of a game is that there are rules and boundaries these rules need to remain con…

"It is entirely jarring if an AI NPC that says something that's not consistent with the game state, or changes the game state in a way that violates the constraint of the understood rules/boundaries of the game"

I played with the Mantella mod for Skyrim a few months back and one of the problems with LLMs is you can't keep them on topic. I even used a custom trained one just for Skyrim, but the problem was it still has vast real world knowledge it shouldn't. For instance I asked a town guard where I could find Taylor Swift, who said she might be down at the tavern playing music. While the conversation didn't super overtly break the theme, the guard "stayed in character" and didn't start gushing about specific songs of hers or something, he still "knew" who she was. Current-gen AIs can't be fenced in very well. And almost every game idea needs some sort of fencing in.

If you play along with the AI it's not bad but if you poke the edges the illusion breaks quickly. You can't prompt a current-gen AI to just "forget everything you shouldn't know because it doesn't fit in the game universe."

I expect future architectures probably will fix this and that will help a lot. But we don't have them yet.

Re: Why No AI Games?

#46
I'm making one as a hobby project alongside my day job.

It's a debate chat game where two humans debate on a topic and a biased AI judge picks a winner. Over time players compete for ELO rankings like in chess or similar head-to-head competitive games.

I'll probably make a blog post someday about what's been involved but I think the points in OP are spot on. I've been struggling to make the format feel fun and lively. Two things really helped compared to my early versions - real-time streaming of the other person's arguments so you're not just staring at a timer while they're writing and very very short rounds so you get feedback and results quickly.

The costs are a bit high but not terrible for a hobby project that no one really plays. My unit cost is around $0.008 per game if an NPC is involved and around $0.004 if it's between two humans. I could probably cover that with really intrusive ads but I'm hoping to get enough users paying for cosmetics (speech bubbles, profile pictures, etc.) to help subsidize the rest of the platform.

I've also tried a version with AI NPC opponents and it's much less fun than playing against real humans for reasons I can't entirely articulate. The AIs just don't make for very interesting debaters and the wins against them feel a bit shallow somehow. Right now, I've got NPCs on the game which you can opt into debating if you spend more than 30 seconds in the matchmaking queue but I hope once I get proper player counts I can disable them entirely.

I'm super biased, but proud of how the game has been coming along. Will make a show hn post someday but if anyone's curious my alpha version is live here: https://letsarg.com

Re: Why No AI Games?

#47
One thing I've learned is, there's a ton of interesting stuff in the world. Super talented people. But, what surface and gets widespread recognition and adoption is often very much determined by luck, and these days by algorithms. It's very possible there's some really cool AI games out there already, and they just haven't been discovered.

The other aspect is that a lot of people in the AI community are completely hooked on the reward-seeking of 'new thing'. Every hour there's some new tool to try out that 'changes everything'. But, without grinding it out you might never create something interesting by constantly jumping to the next new thing. Because, technological capabilities are just one part of the story.

Third, what makes something 'fun' often requires tons of iteration and a lot of LLM-type tools still rely on snapshots of applications. They're not fully there yet in terms of what happens in between moments. There are lots of principles they can draw on from and get a good prototype quickly, but it again comes back to really just slogging through lots of iterations until you find something fun.

Finally, I think with every new medium you get a first wave that really just copies the medium that came before it. Early radio was a lot like theater. Early TV was a lot like radio. I think eventually we'll see people – probably younger people – who are fully into AI and will find interesting things about that medium to express in ideas, and we'll get some really new and interesting stuff as a result.

Re: Why No AI Games?

#48
post #4
post #2

Only because it is something i find fascinating: > There are those Orcs in that one Lord of the Rings game who hold grudges against you. Is referring to the nemesis system in Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor and Shadow of War, and its an amazing set of interlocking procedural systems that do genuinely feel like its AI, but is really AI in the sense its always been used by games (the rules the games follow to govern NPC…

> I think a system like this could really work well Too bad, it's patented! https://www.eurogamer.net/shadow-of-mordors-brilliant-nemesi... Fuck software patents and every single person who has ever filed one.

It’s not really, the patent is very narrow

https://old.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/1iyrbzd/clearing_up_...

https://patents.google.com/patent/US10926179B2/en

The patent was filed in 2016 and granted in 2021. If the system was so useful we would’ve seen it in another game before then, or a very similar system after.

Re: Why No AI Games?

#49
In analogy to suspension of disbelief I'd like to postulate suspension of genericity:

when I sink countless hours skimming text content in some The Elder Scrolls I'm not really convinced that much of it is a story worth consuming (my opinion of TES is lower than my number of gameplay hours might suggest), but I'm at least open to the idea that it might be. Thousands of players have paid good money for consuming those stories, do who knows, I might actually find something meaningful, perhaps something I'll one day connect with a real person about, so it's not necessarily a given that it's all just filler.

But when it's an LLM generating the story for me and only for me, there's no other possibility. It's a hamster wheel time sink and I can't even pretend that it's not.

Re: Why No AI Games?

#50

> The video game audience has decided, almost unanimously, that they don’t want generative AI in their games. Nah, it's just a very vocal minority making lots of noise. We're slowly starting to see saner minds prevail, with steam backtracking on the ban of aigen and so on. People don't care if the end result is good. And the "but muh art" is just virtue signalling. I've used this example before, for me "art" is the f…

It's always this massive cop out.

"Things just got started. The future will be amazing".

I heard this with IoT, Wearables, Cryptocurrency, VR, now Gen AI.

Forgive me if after a while every vague gesture that "now it is for real" just becomes noise.

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