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Bootstrap 2.2.0 released

blog.getbootstrap.com

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Re: Bootstrap 2.2.0 released

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every single demo on this page is buggy in my browser! (OSX, latest chrome).

Define buggy. The guy who wrote the new modal code is pretty responsive to fixing any issues.

Good pun ;P

Click on "View Demo" for the Responsive Modal. Modal appears with content, and disappears immediately when it reaches center of the screen.

Same thing happens for Stackable, and Full Width.

Click on "View Demo" for AJAX. 'Okay' button doesn't dismiss the modal, as I would expect it to.

Same thing happens for Custom Manager.

Re: Bootstrap 2.2.0 released

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Grids are fundamentally the exact opposite of good design. As a former designer, I cannot overstress how stupid this sounds. It's the equivalent of a designer walking up to a bunch of programmers and saying "what's the big deal with functions?" Some things are opinion, and some things are just wrong. This is the latter. Here's the longer response: Grids are fundamental to good design. Have you ever wondered why som…

Show me a respected design authority who advocates grids then. "STUPID STUPID STUPID" is not an argument. The fact is, grids tie content to presentation, and are entirely unnecessary. The fact that you think grids is the reason some websites look right and others look wrong is astoundingly ignorant.

Here you go:

http://www.amazon.com/Systems-Graphic-Systeme-Visuele-Gestal...

Re: Bootstrap 2.2.0 released

#93

I'm mainly a backend guy but do some frontend work from time to time. I keep seeing all this talk about a dozen different CSS "frameworks", and I just don't get it. Can someone explain to me what the purpose of these things is? Bootstrap's site for example doesn't even try to tell me what I would want it for, it just says I want it "because its for nerds" (do I have to dress in faux-nerd chic and live in the valley t…

And here we have it again: the textbook middlebrow dismissal, anchored to the top of the thread.

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4693920

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4714217

The reality of course is that calling Bootstrap a "framework" isn't at all controversial, that you cannot simply mimic it with a "default stylesheet" as suggested by this poster below, that to find a respected source vouching for the use of grids (and other systems of measure) you need look no further than Robert Bringhurst, that the Bootstrap site is atypically clear about its goals (maybe this poster didn't bother to scroll down half a page to see), and that the use of grid systems isn't remotely controversial in web design (where a good starting point to the use of grid systems in typographical and graphical applications would be Khoi Vinh).

Re: Bootstrap 2.2.0 released

#94
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Show me a respected design authority who advocates grids then. "STUPID STUPID STUPID" is not an argument. The fact is, grids tie content to presentation, and are entirely unnecessary. The fact that you think grids is the reason some websites look right and others look wrong is astoundingly ignorant.

Here you go: http://www.amazon.com/Systems-Graphic-Systeme-Visuele-Gestal...

> Purchasing my copy of grid Systems in Graphic Design, by Josef Muller-Brockmann, was the best money I've ever spent on a design text. I was a relatively seasoned designer with 6 years of pro-experience when I was fortunate enough to find a copy of this masterpiece. I was largely self-taught however, and while I knew from working in various layout programs about grids, I had no idea how powerfully they could be utilized. Within a weekend of reading and absorbing this book, my designs had improved substantially.

Sounds about right!

Re: Bootstrap 2.2.0 released

#95
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here you go: http://www.amazon.com/Systems-Graphic-Systeme-Visuele-Gestal...

> Purchasing my copy of grid Systems in Graphic Design, by Josef Muller-Brockmann, was the best money I've ever spent on a design text. I was a relatively seasoned designer with 6 years of pro-experience when I was fortunate enough to find a copy of this masterpiece. I was largely self-taught however, and while I knew from working in various layout programs about grids, I had no idea how powerfully they could be util…

Raster Systeme of course being one of the more famous graphic design books of the 20th century.

Re: Bootstrap 2.2.0 released

#96

I'm mainly a backend guy but do some frontend work from time to time. I keep seeing all this talk about a dozen different CSS "frameworks", and I just don't get it. Can someone explain to me what the purpose of these things is? Bootstrap's site for example doesn't even try to tell me what I would want it for, it just says I want it "because its for nerds" (do I have to dress in faux-nerd chic and live in the valley t…

What's wrong with grids? Everything I have read about design seems to advocate laying things out in the fashion. The nice thing about bootstrap is it enables things like having say, 2 columns at the top of the page then 3 columns underneath then finally going to a single column for the footer very easily. Doing these things in manual CSS if you don't know about all the various browser quirks and tricks can be a pain.

Grids are awesome.

So awesome in fact, that I created DesignGridLayout, a Java Swing layout manager. Jean Francois Poilpret has been the project owner for years and extended far beyond my original vision.

http://designgridlayout.java.net

It has a mostly "fluent API", so you just add components and it mostly figures out columns and spanning widths.

Re: Bootstrap 2.2.0 released

#97
post #93

I'm mainly a backend guy but do some frontend work from time to time. I keep seeing all this talk about a dozen different CSS "frameworks", and I just don't get it. Can someone explain to me what the purpose of these things is? Bootstrap's site for example doesn't even try to tell me what I would want it for, it just says I want it "because its for nerds" (do I have to dress in faux-nerd chic and live in the valley t…

And here we have it again: the textbook middlebrow dismissal, anchored to the top of the thread. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4693920 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4714217 The reality of course is that calling Bootstrap a "framework" isn't at all controversial, that you cannot simply mimic it with a "default stylesheet" as suggested by this poster below, that to find a respected source vouching for the u…

I can't believe I missed those posts by pg, but I think it's fair to say that in all but a very few subjects, my opinion is of the 'middlebrow' variety.

I now have a very real (though very slight) paranoia that any dismissal I offer on HN is going to be categorized as such, and heaven help me if it gets upvoted substantially.

In all seriousness, I both thank you and slightly hate you (in a valley girl sort of way) for pointing it out.

Re: Bootstrap 2.2.0 released

#98

I'm mainly a backend guy but do some frontend work from time to time. I keep seeing all this talk about a dozen different CSS "frameworks", and I just don't get it. Can someone explain to me what the purpose of these things is? Bootstrap's site for example doesn't even try to tell me what I would want it for, it just says I want it "because its for nerds" (do I have to dress in faux-nerd chic and live in the valley t…

Well, if you actually toke the time to read the docs, you would see the value it has. It has personally saved me many hours of development, and I am a back-end + front-end developer too. Don't just start shooting assumptions about the community that surrounds it without reading the help first. And, no, it doesn't just say "because it's for nerds", it says a whole lot more things, but if you wanted to read them you could, you just don't want to. Seems like you just wanted to vent that comment out of your system :). Come on corpy backend guys, dont hate on new frameworks, if you don't like them just let pass through.

Re: Bootstrap 2.2.0 released

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Define buggy. The guy who wrote the new modal code is pretty responsive to fixing any issues.

Good pun ;P Click on "View Demo" for the Responsive Modal. Modal appears with content, and disappears immediately when it reaches center of the screen. Same thing happens for Stackable, and Full Width. Click on "View Demo" for AJAX. 'Okay' button doesn't dismiss the modal, as I would expect it to. Same thing happens for Custom Manager.

Weird, I can reproduce it now. It seems to be something with clicking around to various different ones. I'll report it to the author and see if we can get it fixed. Thanks for giving more information.

https://github.com/jschr/bootstrap-modal/issues/8

Re: Bootstrap 2.2.0 released

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"no purpose or value to it", really? For those who want to get a site up with good defaults, typography, and widgets, Bootstrap is a huge timesaver. If you have a better framework for those of us who "can't design" then point us in the right direction.

As I said: >I guess the answer really is "if you don't want to or can't design your site, just use twitters design" That is what you are describing, so go right ahead and use boostrap. I was just trying to figure out if there was something more to it, given that it calls itself a "framework" and minor releases of it get posted here for some reason. Those things made me think perhaps I was missing something, and it wa…

I think that answers your question to "how is this a framework" and "what is the value in this?"

For many startups who want to get a site up quickly and have it look good and work well on a large number of sites, using something like bootstrap as the basis for their site design is a huge win.

In your previous posts you keep mentioning "designers", plural. What if started your own firm and didn't have money for "designers", plural, but wanted a site that looked good? Code all that CSS bugger yourself and test it across all those browser versions and different display sizes? Or would you maybe look for a solid, easily customized solution that is built around design and coding best practices and that is tested by an active community?

Do you code your own OS kernel and device drivers as well?

What's a good value for the ratio between your base font size and the lineheight you use? Hmm? A decent approximation is already used in the LESS code for bootstrap.

How do you implement a clean grid system that works across browsers and resolutions? How many grid implementations have you tested? Implemented? How reliable are they? How well do they work?

Are you hand coding your CSS? Bootstrap is probably what helped most of the people on HN realize the value of CSS preprocessors such as LESS.

Instead of spending a load of time optimizing common UI experiences across lots of browsers, or hiring a consulting designer who will probably reuse the code he's already written and charge you a chunk of change, you can instead use bootstrap. And when there is a point release you will find that they often included lots of little optimizations that make the overall CSS work better and across more browsers.

Frameworks provide templates and take care of the boilerplate for you. Bootstrap isn't any different from any other framework in that regard.

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