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Iran students stage first large anti-government protests since deadly crackdown

bbc.com

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Re: Iran students stage first large anti-government protests since deadly crackdown

#401

Post by Hikikomori »

fortzi wrote: post #222
dataflow wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> all my friends who posted non-stop about supporting Palestine > I'm saying if you were a very vocal pro-Hamas activist Palestine ≠ Hamas Pro-Palestinian ≠ Pro-Hamas If you genuinely don't believe a significant number of people support the former but not the latter, I... don't even know what to tell you. It certainly says a lot that you can neither distinguish these two nor believe anyone else sees a distinction. >…

Maybe you should ask a few Palestinians before making such statements. Polls made by respected Palestinian surveyors show immense support for Hamas by Palestinians [1]. If you dig inti the polls, you’ll find great support in continuing the armed conflict. I’ll add: to the last man standing. While I agree with you that Hamas and the Palestinians are not one thing, Hamas would not be able to operate the way it did (and…

Fighting your oppressors is usually popular with the oppressed.

Re: Iran students stage first large anti-government protests since deadly crackdown

#402

Post by odiroot »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #294
dyauspitr wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m glad it didn’t work in 1989 because China would not have become the technical behemoth it is now if those protests had succeeded. At the same time I don’t want China to succeed and export its brand of capitofascism purely because I don’t think most other countries can find their benevolent dictator. The cognitive dissonance is wild right now.

> because China would not have become the technical behemoth it is now if those protests had succeeded Taiwan's GDP/capita is 2.6x China's [1]. It grew faster, for longer, in large part through high technology. Counterfactuals are always hard in history. But we literally have the nationalist government's democratic, capitalist successor kicking in way above its weight class economically and technologically. It's fair…

> Taiwan's GDP/capita is 2.6x China's [1]. It grew faster, for longer, in large part through high technology.

Also worth mentioning, all the while being under a military dictatorship (see White Terror) until the late 80's.

Re: Iran students stage first large anti-government protests since deadly crackdown

#403

Post by Hikikomori »

Rover222 wrote: post #376
bigyabai wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even still, that data does not refute the parent's point that you are making a false equivalency. Polling Israeli or US citizens on the extremist groups they support would be similarly dishonest; organizations like ICE, Blackwater and Irgun cannot be fairly conflated with their respective populations regardless of how the majority feels.

Palestinians voted Hamas into power by a large majority. It's not some fringe extremist group. It's mainstream Palestinian culture.

"Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas. This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank."

Re: Iran students stage first large anti-government protests since deadly crackdown

#404

Post by martin-t »

don_esteban wrote: post #392
martin-t wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why "victim" and not "target"? What are the input variables which dictate the morality of an action (generally or in this particular case)?

Because 'target' dehumanizes the victim and makes the violence easier to justify?

On the contrary, target is a neutral word, justifying the violence against a target is exactly as difficult as it should be - based on the circumstances instead of emotions.

Victim already implies wrongdoing so it makes justifying just violence harder than it should be.

For the record, i often use target instead of victim when talking about harassment, bullying, rape, etc. because it also doesn't imply surrender to the aggressor or lack of agency.

Re: Iran students stage first large anti-government protests since deadly crackdown

#405

Post by tehjoker »

reliabilityguy wrote: post #351
tehjoker wrote: post #199

A reminder that American economic sanctions are a primary cause of the situation that causes protests against the Iranian government. Our government is attempting to destroy Iran, an independent nation that is not our enemy. When will American students stage a large scale anti-government protest against the regime? Oh right, the billionaires and zionist lobby cracked down on the encampments with the (violent) help of…

> independent nation that is not our enemy. That is why when they chant "Death to America" they mean that they love us?

They hate the government that is trying to destroy their entire society. Stop attacking a country half-way around the world, they will stop even thinking about us.

Re: Iran students stage first large anti-government protests since deadly crackdown

#406

Post by tehjoker »

hunterpayne wrote: post #269
tehjoker wrote: post #199

A reminder that American economic sanctions are a primary cause of the situation that causes protests against the Iranian government. Our government is attempting to destroy Iran, an independent nation that is not our enemy. When will American students stage a large scale anti-government protest against the regime? Oh right, the billionaires and zionist lobby cracked down on the encampments with the (violent) help of…

Liberal doesn't mean Democrat. And those Ivies largely purged anyone who was actually Liberal years ago. But sure, keep blaming the Jews, it doesn't at all make you look conspiratorial. I will never understand why extremist groups all have that in common.

I'm Jewish and anti-zionist. I meant liberalism as in the commitment to enlightenment principles. At one point, the Republican party also shared that base commitment even if it wanted the 1890s version of that.

Re: Iran students stage first large anti-government protests since deadly crackdown

#407

Post by cardanome »

reliabilityguy wrote: post #397
cardanome wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the worst you could find is a story from 2007 where Hamas killed five collaborators? Not to mention that it was in the context of a coup attempt against democratically elected Hamas. Fatah decided to betray its own people. In the West Bank it is helping Israel to oppress their own people and actively fights against Palestinian resistance. Hamas works perfectly well together with all Palestinian resistance groups f…

> Fatah decided to betray its own people. In the West Bank it is helping Israel to oppress their own people and actively fights against Palestinian resistance. https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/10/23/palestine-authorities-cr... Does Israel also force Hamas and PA to violently suppress dissent too?

The Palestinian Authority is Fatah and yes they are forced by Israel to suppress dissent.

As for Hamas

> Human Rights Watch met with the Palestinian Authority Intelligence Services in Ramallah, but was unable to accept an offer from Hamas authorities to meet in Gaza because Israel refused to grant permits for senior Human Rights Watch officials to enter the Gaza Strip for this purpose. Israeli authorities also rejected Human Rights Watch’s request for senior representatives to enter Gaza during October 2018 to present this report at a news conference.

Re: Iran students stage first large anti-government protests since deadly crackdown

#408

Post by vkou »

watwut wrote: post #352
vkou wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Russia is not a Western country. Russian culture, as it is practiced in the country's power centers, both historically and today is absolutely Western. It may not be liberal western culture, but guess what, there's no shortage of Western countries that have been, or are, quite illiberal. For a simple example, MAGA is western culture. United Russia isn't at all different from it, it just has a different coat of pain…

The only thing that can make Russia "western" is if you equate white and western. MAGA is western, because it is American. Russia is not western, because it is neither europe nor america. And they themselves consider themselves east. And did for over a hundred years.

> The only thing that can make Russia "western" is if you equate white and western.

The thing that makes it western is similarity of culture, philosophy, religion, social structure, historic exchange and cross-pollination. [0] All of which exist well within the range set by countries that you would have no qualms of calling western.

It is very similar to the rest of Europe on all those axes, in a way that Indian, East Asian, Middle Eastern, Native American, African[1], Polynesian culture, philosophy, and structures are not.

Yes, there are some peculiarities about it that the anglosphere finds alien. The same can be said for any distinct culture within the western sphere.

---

[0] Keep in mind that when I am speaking of Russia, my claims cannot be generalized among all of the ~100 ethnic and cultural groups that compose it. Just of the ones that make up the country's political center.

[1] I am speaking from a position of incredible ignorance when I just roll up an entire continent into 'African'. It's quite likely that people who know their ass from their elbow would be able to tell me why I'm wrong to do so.

Re: Iran students stage first large anti-government protests since deadly crackdown

#409

Post by _hf1g »

fortzi wrote: post #222
dataflow wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> all my friends who posted non-stop about supporting Palestine > I'm saying if you were a very vocal pro-Hamas activist Palestine ≠ Hamas Pro-Palestinian ≠ Pro-Hamas If you genuinely don't believe a significant number of people support the former but not the latter, I... don't even know what to tell you. It certainly says a lot that you can neither distinguish these two nor believe anyone else sees a distinction. >…

Maybe you should ask a few Palestinians before making such statements. Polls made by respected Palestinian surveyors show immense support for Hamas by Palestinians [1]. If you dig inti the polls, you’ll find great support in continuing the armed conflict. I’ll add: to the last man standing. While I agree with you that Hamas and the Palestinians are not one thing, Hamas would not be able to operate the way it did (and…

[dead]

Re: Iran students stage first large anti-government protests since deadly crackdown

#410

Post by c22 »

martin-t wrote: post #301
c22 wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some tools are definitely better than others. Also some tools are not "the right tool" for the job. Fundamentally though I'm not sure I agree with you. Violence is often an emotional reaction. When violence is used as a tool it is usually (always?) used by bad people. If it helps you reconcile my worldview, I absolutely oppose the existence of states.

> the right tool Keep in mind this needs to be judged separately in the legal, practical and moral dimension. For example a state might determine that a person _legally_ deserves to spend 10 years in prison. But the same state will attack you in turn if you abduct that person and hold them for 10 years in similar conditions to prison because _practically_, it weakens the state's monopoly on violence, even if _morally…

I don't believe that punishment can be just, and ergo I don't see a moral axis on which to judge violent actions for this purpose. I might concede the use of threatened violence as a means of control, but I don't see any pragmatic way to accomplish this without at least occasional actual punishment so it's a bit non sequiter.

It's likely our views are divergent enough that we wont come to a consensus on this, but I appreciate the nuanced discourse!

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