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Iran students stage first large anti-government protests since deadly crackdown

bbc.com

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Re: Iran students stage first large anti-government protests since deadly crackdown

#131

Post by kryogen1c »

mothballed wrote: post #95
Erem wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What, since released, internal memos or journals from mid-century civil rights leaders have revealed that destroying the constitution was their objective? Seems like a stretch.

I believe the civil rights leaders themselves were mostly genuine. I think they were used as useful idiots on a couple instances to support the two most destructive policies of the US. (1) Secession. This was used for evil in the form of slavery. But it is the most powerful check of federal power by the states we had. The fact it could be used for evil did not mean it is better to get rid of it. (2) Expansion of the…

Im certainly sympathetic to #2 being one of the greatest unconstitutional practices of the modern US government, but is its genesis really the civil rights movement? There were many settled cases about interstate commerce before the Civil rights act, like Gibbons v. Ogden.

https://www.britannica.com/money/commerce-clause/Interpretat...

Re: Iran students stage first large anti-government protests since deadly crackdown

#132

Post by zozbot234 »

mothballed wrote: post #95
Erem wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What, since released, internal memos or journals from mid-century civil rights leaders have revealed that destroying the constitution was their objective? Seems like a stretch.

I believe the civil rights leaders themselves were mostly genuine. I think they were used as useful idiots on a couple instances to support the two most destructive policies of the US. (1) Secession. This was used for evil in the form of slavery. But it is the most powerful check of federal power by the states we had. The fact it could be used for evil did not mean it is better to get rid of it. (2) Expansion of the…

(2) is not a problem if you enact equivalent civil rights acts in every state. There would be plenty of political support for doing this today, including in the Sunbelt - which there wasn't in the 1950s.

Re: Iran students stage first large anti-government protests since deadly crackdown

#133

Post by pydry »

mupuff1234 wrote: post #122
pydry wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>So there are no circumstances where armed rebellion is justifiable What circumstances has Iran created that demand armed rebellion?

Economic collapse, failed infrastructure, lack of human rights, ruthless religious dictatorship? All while spending 25% of their budget on military ventures. Just to name a few.

The economic suffering has largely been inflicted deliberately by US sanctions.

This would seem to suggest that sinking an aircraft carrier and frigate or two would actually be justified according to your principles?

Re: Iran students stage first large anti-government protests since deadly crackdown

#134

Post by Erem »

mothballed wrote: post #95
Erem wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What, since released, internal memos or journals from mid-century civil rights leaders have revealed that destroying the constitution was their objective? Seems like a stretch.

I believe the civil rights leaders themselves were mostly genuine. I think they were used as useful idiots on a couple instances to support the two most destructive policies of the US. (1) Secession. This was used for evil in the form of slavery. But it is the most powerful check of federal power by the states we had. The fact it could be used for evil did not mean it is better to get rid of it. (2) Expansion of the…

With that framing, aren’t those two outcomes detrimental side effects of achieving the objective, rather than the objective itself per your original comment?

Re: Iran students stage first large anti-government protests since deadly crackdown

#135

Post by SilverElfin »

Betelbuddy wrote: post #30

I cant imagine the courage that is needed to take part in these protests. Most here, the most revolutionary act they will ever participate on in their life, is criticizing their boss choice of Azure as cloud provider...

Yep. I think in America most would be scared of what ICE and DHS would do to them. Hard to imagine facing off an authoritarian militaristic government.

Re: Iran students stage first large anti-government protests since deadly crackdown

#136

Post by gambutin »

CommanderData wrote: post #130
Betelbuddy wrote: post #30

I cant imagine the courage that is needed to take part in these protests. Most here, the most revolutionary act they will ever participate on in their life, is criticizing their boss choice of Azure as cloud provider...

[flagged]

Iranians are not "just" Arabs. They speak their own language called Farsi, which has Indo-European roots. Their culture is overall very different and goes back before Islamic conquest of Iran.

Re: Iran students stage first large anti-government protests since deadly crackdown

#137

Post by philwelch »

regularization wrote: post #31
Aromasin wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The key part is that there are multiple insurgencies going on simultaneously. There are separatist movements that are looking to create new nations states, while simultaneous there are non-violent protests ongoing, generally looking for regime change and a move away from extremists religious tendencies. Both can be true simultaneously.

> separatist movements The Kurds had their own state at the end of World War II - the US and UK forced them to dissolve and integrate with Iran. Actually the US just abandoned the Kurds in Syria two weeks ago as it signed deals with Syria's former al Qaeda leader. Kurds are people the West foments to armed rebellion, and then quashes, for decades, depending on western material needs at the minute.

Wikipedia describes it as a “a short-lived Kurdish self-governing unrecognized state in present-day Iran” and “a puppet state of the Soviet Union”. Doesn’t really count as a free and independent state.

Re: Iran students stage first large anti-government protests since deadly crackdown

#139

Post by hunterpayne »

santoshalper wrote: post #86
Wytwwww wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> with western countries also openly declaring their intent to destabilize Iran As opposed to standing idly by when the regime 'stabilizes' the country by murdering thousands of people? It's well past the stage where non violent protest or resistance stopped being a viable option..

Not really. We absolutely have the option to let things play out in Iran and refuse to intervene. There are many regimes in Africa that are as bad or worse than Iran. We seem to have little interest in "regime change" there. You should think about why not.

Those African regimes don't spend billions a year to promote and fund terrorism in other countries. Remember kids, you can kill millions of your own people (Stalin, Mao, etc) and nobody will care. Heck, some will even celebrate you. But don't mess with people in another country, otherwise outsiders will get involved. Iran is the main source of violence and terrorism in the most violent part of the world. Maybe, just maybe your fake moralizing isn't helping.

Re: Iran students stage first large anti-government protests since deadly crackdown

#140

Post by SilverElfin »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #7

“To simplify greatly, the strategy of non-violence aims first to cause disruption (non-violently) in order both to draw attention but also in order to bait state overreaction. The state’s overreaction then becomes the ‘spectacular attack’ which broadcasts the movement’s message, while the group’s willingness to endure that overreaction without violence not only avoids alienating supporters, it heightens the contrast…

I thought the state’s supporters were actually very large in number and the dominant force in Iran. After all past protests, like about the woman who was disappeared and killed, were smaller and were suppressed quickly. What changed? Is it demographics - like are there larger numbers of young people who aren’t for a theocracy?
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