Why I'm returning my Microsoft Surface RT • Hacker News Board

Re: Why I'm returning my Microsoft Surface RT

#251

Post by BrentOzar » Sun, Oct 28, 2012, 11:45 AM UTC

mmind wrote: post #208

BrentOzar wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mmind - thanks for the update, but this doesn't replicate my scenario. Can you have multiple pages of text (at least 2) and then go back up to the first page and start adding text? That's what really nailed mine.

Hi Brent, I tried to repro a worst case based on your info: http://youtu.be/V01zgACyAF4 as you can see, 20 pages full of errors, spell and grammar correction enabled, writing in the first page. It clearly shows more CPU usage than the first test, but always below 40% for every core. Please, note that I am not trying to say that you did not hit a bug or even a faulty device, just that I have not been able to repro it…

Jorge - thanks! Based on the sounds in the video, you're using a Touch Cover. I wonder if it's related to me using the Type Cover instead?

Re: Why I'm returning my Microsoft Surface RT

#252

Post by BrentOzar » Sun, Oct 28, 2012, 11:54 AM UTC

goggles99 wrote: post #241

Anechoic wrote: post #23

"The diagonally-oriented camera is strange. In the one orientation it’s optimized for, it’s slightly annoying. In any other orientation, it’s almost intolerable. " "The built-in front-facing camera for Skype is angled so that it’ll work great when the kickstand is open, but again, only for Danny DeVito, or maybe for people who want to show off their chests in Skype." ------ "The Touch Cover is one of the Surface’s bi…

LOL there is so much bias from this "review" (if we can even call it that) It is oozing out of my speakers. The Drama in the reviewers voice is so unmistakable that it is almost sickening. Did he write a "B" script for this and rehearse too? I would not be surprised. Why would you return a device after 24 hours of owning it? Do you not expect any learning curve here? This is pretty much a Mac user attitude. Macs and…

Goggles - thanks for taking the time to explain your thoughts, and I can totally see how it would see like I'm a raving fanboi intent on destroying Microsoft. Most of the time when I read gadget reviews, that's how they sound, and it frustrates me too.

You asked, "Why would you return a device after 24 hours of owning it?" Because I was frustrated with it. I know this is going to sound corny, but I want my gadgets to surprise and delight me. This one didn't.

You said, "The camera angle is off only if you put it way too close to yourself or are extraordinarily tall". I'm 6'3", which I wouldn't call extraordinarily tall - for example, my business partner Jeremiah is taller than me. I put the Surface as far back as I could and still comfortably touch the keyboard and display.

You said, "Your complaint about the word slowness WAS somewhat valid (has been fixed and updated now)". Thanks, I appreciate the honesty. Unfortunately, the way to get the update is to go through a search, pick a non-default option, and refresh it. That's something we can't expect end users to do. I did the updates through the Metro Windows UI - repeatedly - and it wouldn't have even occurred to me that there were three different ways to get updates. Two I can kinda sorta get (OS and apps) but three, no.

You asked, "First off - how often do you reboot a tablet?" I travel a lot (5 flights in the next 2 weeks) so I have to do it pretty frequently.

You said, "It is clear that either you did a factory restore of the device. (WinRT apps are very slow to open the first time." No, that happened every time I tried to open Mail, but I bet this isn't happening to you because maybe mail only has to be configured once. Every time I opened it, it still wasn't configured. It probably has to go through some kind of long start to set things up, which it didn't do since it couldn't figure out where my email was.

You said, "The most embarrassing part FOR YOU must have been" - no, actually, the most embarrassing part has been having to spell things out for the fanboys. My brento@brentozar.com account is indeed a Live account. It's how I access all Microsoft services - MSDN, TechNet, Outlook.com, Messenger, etc.

Re: Why I'm returning my Microsoft Surface RT

#253

Post by kalms » Sun, Oct 28, 2012, 12:40 PM UTC

goggles99 wrote: post #247

kalms wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Knowing Microsoft I'd say the odds of a reboot is probably larger on the Surface. Apparently even a small app update (office) requires a reboot.

This is misinformation. If this behavior is observed it was probably because a separate update was performed at the same time which updated system files.

Okay, thank you for that information. I'll be buying one anyway - Insanely curious about the overall user experience.

Edit: Come to think about it - I hope that update was explicitly stated. Wouldn't want my hardware to perform system critical updates disguised as a simple application update.

Re: Why I'm returning my Microsoft Surface RT

#254

Post by pycassa » Sun, Oct 28, 2012, 1:07 PM UTC

georgemcbay wrote: post #121

I posted about this before: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4660871 and I still think it is true... IMO Microsoft made a mistake by leading out with the RT. Leading with the Pro and then offering the RT as a feature-reduced lower cost version would have cut down on the confusion as to what RT really is and lessened the initial impression that the Windows 8 experience is kind of underwhelming.

they want to fill the microsoft store.. so they wanted to get the rt version first.. and frankly no one will pay attention if any of the OEMs release an RT tablet/laptop.. simply, they wanted a successful RT tablet.. they decided to do it themselves..

Re: Why I'm returning my Microsoft Surface RT

#255

Post by stevenwei » Sun, Oct 28, 2012, 1:25 PM UTC

To me, the user experience issues are the biggest failures of all:

    - A mail app that opens to a completely blank screen with no cues on how
      to continue.
    - An infinite login dialog that doesn't allow you to cancel and back out.

Wanting software that offers a pleasant and intuitive user experience doesn't mean that you want software that's dumbed down for grandma, and I'm sad that people are portraying it that way.

I've read my share of man pages and hand written my Xorg.confs many times in previous lives, I'm no stranger to complex and arcane software setup procedures.

But in 2012, in the world of smartphones and tablets, this is stuff that should just work. The answer to "the mail app is completely blank on launch" shouldn't be "sorry, you failed to read the manual". Ever.

And while I greatly respect Microsoft's attempt at entering this market, someone on their team, at some point, had to look at these issues[1] and say, "okay, this software is ready to ship anyway". That does not bode well.

[1] The alternative, I suppose, is that no one noticed. Which is even worse.

Re: Why I'm returning my Microsoft Surface RT

#256

Post by gojomo » Sun, Oct 28, 2012, 2:19 PM UTC

BrentOzar wrote: post #112

gojomo wrote: post #108

The advice to "wait for the one due in a few months that needs a fan " makes me wonder if this author's sweet spot for tablets is anywhere near mine. I hate fans. (And does such advice mean the author is literally a fan-boy? A fan-fan-boy?)

Brent the author here. When I say wait for the one with a fan, I'm just giving guidance to people who really want the Windows experience. I hate fans too.

Sure, I understand you weren't touting the fan itself as a benefit and I appreciated your overall writeup. I just had to share my double-take at seeing the ideas "will have a fan" and "worth waiting for" so close together.

Re: Why I'm returning my Microsoft Surface RT

#257

Post by xbryanx » Sun, Oct 28, 2012, 2:35 PM UTC

admiralpumpkin wrote: post #77

xbryanx wrote: post #7

Ahh, so they made Word behave like it does on OS X. Standardization.

A funny response (truly), but Office on OS X (which I use extensively) never lags like that for me, even on older Mac hardware (Core Duo from 2006 or so).

Sadly it totally does for me. And while this is different problem, Word on OS X still seems to think Copy-Paste is a computationally complex problem on par with decoding the human genome.

Re: Why I'm returning my Microsoft Surface RT

#258

Post by rm999 » Sun, Oct 28, 2012, 3:12 PM UTC

Splines wrote: post #228

cageface wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. Thanks for the insider's insight. Is Microsoft really serious about challenging the iPad juggernaut with this kind of inattention to detail?

> Is Microsoft really serious about challenging the iPad juggernaut with this kind of inattention to detail? Not sure where you're going with this, but given the amount of effort and ambition around the Surface, I would say that Microsoft is absolutely serious. As for Word, there was a limited number of things we could do and fix in a finite amount of time. Trade-offs need to be made.

There's a difference between being serious about a product and being serious enough to do what it takes to make the product succeed. Apple has set a high bar of tight hardware/software integration, where the software is hand-tuned to take advantage of everything limited mobile hardware has to offer. The market expects nothing less. The Apple model works because management is willing to control both sides, and the Android model works because everything is relatively open so the software devs can play directly with the hardware.

> there was a limited number of things we could do

No one is blaming you or your team. I'd blame the lowest person in the company who had the ability to install beta versions of Office on beta versions of Surface.

Re: Why I'm returning my Microsoft Surface RT

#259

Post by jonaphin » Sun, Oct 28, 2012, 3:22 PM UTC

vidarh wrote: post #232

Zak wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have a horse in the iPad vs. Surface race. I don't care for closed ecosystems or walled gardens and have little desire for either device. I'm either a neutral party, or hostile to both camps. The use-case of an attached keyboard and the fully fledged Office app suite is not what this device is primarly for. That may be true, but it's a poor excuse. The basic function of a word processor is to easily generate…

> [0] Note: not hyperbole. Two megabytes versus two gigabytes. If anything, you were generous. You could run WYSIWYG word processors on a 512KB Amiga or Atari. Both with a single M68k CPU at secpnd generation ARM CPU's used in the Acorn Archimedes range, and while there were numerous discussions about which were faster, a 7MHz-8MHz M68k is at least in the same magnitude performance wise as an 8MHz ARM2 CPU.. (EDIT: A…

"...my 1988 Amiga 500+" Vidarh, you just brought tears to my eyes!

Re: Why I'm returning my Microsoft Surface RT

#260

Post by mitchty » Sun, Oct 28, 2012, 5:48 PM UTC

chris_wot wrote: post #237

mitchty wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok so the focus on negative isn't relegated to just this community, its rather pervasive in society in general. Look at the iOS6 maps stuff and the flaking etc... Not to discount them in general but everyone that looks at my phone always comments about its weight first. I think humans focus on their pain points over the good in general.

Maps were really the only thing that sucked about Apple's release. Believe me, I'd love to be using Microsoft's product, but the issues being shown here are very good reasons that prevent me from forking out my hard earned cash on this device.

Oh no doubt Maps sucks now, but it is getting better. Well at least whenever I report problems they get put in place in a week or so.

Just trying to point out we notice the problems more than the positives. I need to stop by ye olde apple store and get some cables, think I'll jaunt over to the ms store and have a look at the surface too. Hopefully the sales guys don't pounce.