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Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

reuters.com

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Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#351

Post by jimnotgym »

There are some pretty revealing comments here. People seem to think only money has value.

Then there are people who see art only as a rich person's pursuit. It can be, but it doesn't need to be.

I am reminded of Daniel James also known as Gwyrosydd, his bardic name. He was a Welsh language poet, who wrote probably the greatest Welsh language song, Calon Lân (means 'a pure heart'). People throughout Wales sing this song 130 years later. It is a proud continuation of a bardic tradition in Wales going back probably thousands of years. It also encompasses the Welsh culture of choral singing, noted in early recorded history.

Daniel James spent his life slaving away in an ironworks, making crucible steel. John Hughes, who wrote the tune worked in an office there.

I like to imagine what they could have done had they been at leisure to work and perform all day.

Go Ireland, great scheme. I wish we had it over here in the UK.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#352

Post by bell-cot »

mantas wrote: post #270
bell-cot wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...I think people who benefit... 325 Euros/week sounds like basic rent & food & transportation. Not artsy projects with enough spare Euros for someone to skim serious money off from. Providing "free" studios, supplies, instruments, etc. sounds like a scheme to give politicians more photo ops and bureaucrats more jobs. Why can't the artists just source exactly what they think they need from existing supply chains?

> 325 Euros/week sounds like basic rent & food & transportation. Not artsy projects with enough spare Euros for someone to skim serious money off from. Exactly. But it's a nice addition for „project-conscious“ crowd who can add one more income stream. > Providing "free" studios, supplies, instruments, etc. sounds like a scheme to give politicians more photo ops and bureaucrats more jobs Some libraries here started pr…

Yes, supporting en-masse stuff is important. Artsy or not - playgrounds, parks, football pitches, and other things count. Or spaces for civic choral groups and painting clubs, repairing old church organs, ...

For the arts, free studios & such are both en-masse support, and a wider part of the talent funnel (vs. basic incomes).

Biggest problem that I see with basic incomes is in selecting who gets those. The article notes they'll pick randomly from 8,000 applicants - but there's judgement and selection somewhere. Otherwise, the scheme would implode politically after giving money to folks whose "art" was offensive graffiti, or appreciating expensive whiskey, or whatever.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#353

Post by uyzstvqs »

Economics apply the same way to art. It can be one of the most profitable solo-endeavors, when your art is generally accepted as good or meaningful.

All the government-subsidized art that I've come across is straight up awful, and nobody ever actually cares for it. Typically it's weird abstract stuff.

By these standards, should I be paid an income from your tax money for my 5 side-projects on GitHub that nobody uses?

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#354

Post by s_dev »

mike_hearn wrote: post #300
s_dev wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Irish here. It's a cultural thing. Ireland is the only country in the world whose national symbol is a musical instrument. Art is seen as a worthwhile endeavour even if it can't necessarily support itself as a private endeavour. It's for the same reason galleries and museums are subsidised by the government. Anyone can call themselves an artist but to receive this money you would have to have a portfolio of work that…

> Ireland already has a competitive economy Ireland's economic statistics are so badly distorted by US companies routing money there that there is an entire subfield of economics dedicated to trying to figure out what Ireland's real economic state is, called "Leprechaun economics". A common adjustment made by economics researchers when studying the EU is to just subtract Ireland entirely. https://en.wikipedia.org/wik…

I'm 38, I was fully aware of this when I was 15 years old in Economics class. This is simply a problem for people who go around measuring everything with GDP and demand the world adjust to that. You've run in to the limitations of GDP.

There is no single indicator of wealth, measuring wealth requires a number of measures to provide context and contrast. The Irish economy is largely comparable to the Danish economy. I'd say the Danes sneak in just ahead of us but well behind Norway and Switzerland.

Ireland for example is wealthier than either the UK or France on a per capita basis. The GDP of Alabama and Bavaria, Germany per capita is largely the same, yet you would be insane to think Alabama was in anyway wealthier than Bavaria.

I stand by my comment.

The Irish economy is competitive and your little 'gotcha' that is a common trope across various shallow sub reddits, increasingly at an alarmingly peevish rate simply doesn't persuade me or others who are interested in understanding these things at a deeper level. There is a time and place for that discussion and it really isn't this thread.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#355

Post by jimnotgym »

fedeb95 wrote: post #347
graemep wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Art is not a free market. The art market is heavily manipulated by investors in art. The subsidies and tax exemptions artists receive are small so if you are arguing for less state subsidy or its the least of the problems you should look at. I am not convinced that this particular scheme is a good idea, but the alternative is not a free market. > then maybe small businesses? Big business already receives both explici…

you are citing distortions of a free market to invoke more distortions. This is the spiral I'm talking about.

A spiral we are 1000 years into? This little distortion seems to matter to you in a way that the much larger distortions created by governments don't. I don't understand.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#356

Post by crabmusket »

qeternity wrote: post #312
BryantD wrote: post #272

Ireland has already provided substantial benefits to artists — income from art is exempt from income tax up to a certain level. Society has not disintegrated. Speculation and anecdotes are not terribly useful but my Irish author friend is not from a rich family, nor is she well-off, but she’s able to support her husband and child in a smaller Irish city by dint of writing several books a year and stressing a lot. I d…

> I don’t think it would be possible without the tax exemption. Maybe it shouldn't be possible. Society is telling your friend that her work is not particularly valuable and that she should probably consider doing something else.

Society is not telling her that - the labour market is. I guess she should get off her lazy ass and learn how to become a high frequency trader.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#357

Post by RupertSalt »

deadbabe wrote: post #139
jamesbelchamber wrote: post #63

If they think this is good/important then fine but what they've created is a grant programme, not a UBI. Personally I would have thought this money would have been better spent getting people on the margins the stability to retrain into in-demand skilled careers (e.g. single, unskilled parents training as electricians or plumbers). That feels like it would be a more durable, multi-generational benefit. But again, thi…

It is not a grant. It is UBI. People who advocated for UBI always said they will spend time creating art, etc. if they didn’t have to work for income. So here it is, the dream come true.

Ireland currently has a population of approximately 5,501,000 people. There is great news: Bono and the rest of his band have agreed to provide subsidies for the 5,499,000 citizens who aren't receiving the BIA funds, and they'll brand this supplemental program as U2BI.

The website will be established shortly as https://ww2.u2bi.ie:212/ as soon as the registrars can correct the typos.

  /s

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#358

Post by Schmerika »

inglor_cz wrote: post #292
Schmerika wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is art subjective?

A similar program in the Netherlands once ran for decades. It produced about quarter a million uh, tangible units of art, which not even government institutions wanted anymore, not even for free. The warehouses became full and dusty. This was later one of the motivations to cancel the program.

Not that similar though.

What you're talking about is paying people to produce 'art' by the unit.

This scheme is about paying credentialed artists so they can breath a little bit. No need to supply slop.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#359

Post by Schmerika »

themafia wrote: post #143
Schmerika wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to criticize the study, it would be best to actually read the method rather than make assumptions.

Would you happen to have a link to that?

I do. Do you have the money to pay me to research it for you?

I shouldn't hurt my potential income like this, but the link is even mentioned elsewhere itt.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#360

Post by roenxi »

danlitt wrote: post #345
roenxi wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of those relevant writings became relevant because of the horrible experiences the author went through forged them into an interesting writer. If we're assuming that we only know retrospectively whether the writing is important then the best course of action would be for people to write as a hobby and make choices that are likely (rather than unlikely) to lead to a comfortable life. Particularly in this current…

Are you arguing that most good writers from history were poor? This is after all the only "horrible experience" a subsidy would alleviate. I don't think that's actually supported by evidence, most great writers I can think of were relatively extremely sheltered (although they often were sensitive to the horrible experiences of others)

> Are you arguing that most good writers from history were poor?

No. If I was arguing that I'd have said that.

I'm observing that a lot of great writers had pretty miserable lives and I'm arguing that people should aim to live comfortably.

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