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Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

reuters.com

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Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#341

Post by matevzmihalic »

Swizec wrote: post #218
s_dev wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Irish here. It's a cultural thing. Ireland is the only country in the world whose national symbol is a musical instrument. Art is seen as a worthwhile endeavour even if it can't necessarily support itself as a private endeavour. It's for the same reason galleries and museums are subsidised by the government. Anyone can call themselves an artist but to receive this money you would have to have a portfolio of work that…

We have a similar scheme in Slovenia. Don't know the details but there's the concept of a "free artist". At a minimum you need a registered business, regular exhibitions or performances in your field, you have to register with the ministry of culture, and can't have a job. Contract work is allowed and encouraged. Also you are expected to apply when the government issues a Call For Creatives. I think you get paid mini…

You don't actually get paid, but you don't need to pay taxes and social security fees (around 650€ per month) that you would otherwise have to pay as a self employed person.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#342

Post by danlitt »

fedeb95 wrote: post #325

this kind of reasoning will accumulate so much inefficiencies that it will eventually blow up. Or, in the best case scenario, create a proportional inflation that makes this subsidies useless. Think about the big picture: your salary is a cost for someone else. In the case of "basic income" is a cost for the tax payers. Who decides what benefits the tax payers? The state can't possibly do it, if not for a limited ext…

This argument has a lot of holes in it. Notably,

> Planned economies have historically failed.

Very much false - the US war and post-war economy was very heavily planned, and was perhaps the most successful economy in history (precisely until it was gutted in the 70s/80s).

> best case scenario, create a proportional inflation

You give no reason to expect that this inflation will at best be proportional. It is perfectly possible (in fact likely) that the inflation will be less than proportional, because the price-setters (companies) are being taxed to give money to people on low incomes, who are economically speaking mostly consumers.

> Each of this "tax exemptions" or subsidies eats the profits of someone else. Very rarely it's the richest luxuries that are taken away.

Defeatist argument. It is obvious from history that taxation can be recouped from the rich, we just don't generally try to do that at the moment. We should start.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#344

Post by wooger »

s_dev wrote: post #262
CalRobert wrote: post #227

The frustrating thing about this program is that it is not possible to avail of this unless you are ALREADY an artist. So if you gave up art because you had bills and kids and needed to support yourself or a family, you're SOL. The only person I know getting this money was already semi-retired after selling their house in London and retiring to the Irish countryside, and basically just noodles around on the guitar no…

>The frustrating thing about this program is that it is not possible to avail of this unless you are ALREADY an artist. Correct, the programme is FOR artists. How could this possibly work otherwise? By somebody stating they intend to become an talented artist? How else would you gauge merit if not through their portfolio of prior work?

Everyone is capable of creating art.

We're not objectively deciding what is art and what isn't, up front. Who decides what counts? Who's to say an AI generated self-published vomit novels on Amazon aren't as valid as anything else.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#345

Post by danlitt »

roenxi wrote: post #331
tappio wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a false assumption. We will only know retrospectively whether it was valuable or not. 1. She gets better all the time, and might be super popular in the future 2. Many writings became relevant only long after the death of the author

A lot of those relevant writings became relevant because of the horrible experiences the author went through forged them into an interesting writer. If we're assuming that we only know retrospectively whether the writing is important then the best course of action would be for people to write as a hobby and make choices that are likely (rather than unlikely) to lead to a comfortable life. Particularly in this current…

Are you arguing that most good writers from history were poor? This is after all the only "horrible experience" a subsidy would alleviate. I don't think that's actually supported by evidence, most great writers I can think of were relatively extremely sheltered (although they often were sensitive to the horrible experiences of others)

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#346

Post by jjgreen »

philipallstar wrote: post #335
pwim wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s plenty of things that are valuable for society while still not having significant financial value.

Money is generally how we describe value.

Love, honesty, kindness, ..., none of these have value?

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#347

Post by fedeb95 »

graemep wrote: post #339
fedeb95 wrote: post #325

this kind of reasoning will accumulate so much inefficiencies that it will eventually blow up. Or, in the best case scenario, create a proportional inflation that makes this subsidies useless. Think about the big picture: your salary is a cost for someone else. In the case of "basic income" is a cost for the tax payers. Who decides what benefits the tax payers? The state can't possibly do it, if not for a limited ext…

Art is not a free market. The art market is heavily manipulated by investors in art. The subsidies and tax exemptions artists receive are small so if you are arguing for less state subsidy or its the least of the problems you should look at. I am not convinced that this particular scheme is a good idea, but the alternative is not a free market. > then maybe small businesses? Big business already receives both explici…

you are citing distortions of a free market to invoke more distortions. This is the spiral I'm talking about.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#348

Post by everdrive »

I wonder if there's a lot of controversy here. I'm not Irish, but I would really hate to be subsidizing the guy who taped a banana to a wall, for instance. In the general sense, I think subsidizing the arts can be a smart move, but so much art these days is nothing of the sort.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#349

Post by uoaei »

hackable_sand wrote: post #282
uoaei wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What kind of undervalued labor do unemployed salespeople and carpet installers perform during unemployment?

Enjoying art

Consumer behavior, unbecoming of wage earners during this zeitgeist. How are the producers of art incentivized?

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#350

Post by whiplash451 »

fedeb95 wrote: post #325

this kind of reasoning will accumulate so much inefficiencies that it will eventually blow up. Or, in the best case scenario, create a proportional inflation that makes this subsidies useless. Think about the big picture: your salary is a cost for someone else. In the case of "basic income" is a cost for the tax payers. Who decides what benefits the tax payers? The state can't possibly do it, if not for a limited ext…

Countries benefit massively from art. First-grade art attracts wealthy people who pay local taxes and wealthy tourists who contribute to the economic cycle of the country. For some European countries, the numbers are mind-blowing.
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