Why though? Systemd has been a huge success, dragging Linux kicking and screaming into the modern world.
Indeed, as mentioned in another comment, all major UNIXes already had something similar in place.
Devuan – Debian Without Systemd
41–50 of 221 posts
Re: Devuan – Debian Without Systemd
#42I have to admit to still having some philosophical discomfort over SystemD as I feel that it encompasses too much functionality. That said, it does work and that is probably the most important thing.
Re: Devuan – Debian Without Systemd
#43Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yep, no "unnecessary entanglements" evidently (their words, not mine).
> Unnecessary entanglements The problems with systemd are: * that once it was adopted, every single package started requiring it * which meant that packages that previously could run everywhere, now could only run on systemd-based systems * binary logs - a solution that solved nothing but created problems * which locked out any system that wasn't linux * which locked out any linux system that didn't want to use it *…
> * "bUt yOu DoNt hAVe tO uSE it" - tell that to the remote attestation crowd, of which Poettering is a founding member of. see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46784572 - soon you'll have to use systemD because nothing else can be used.
You're saying that because the person who made systemd now work on hardware attestation, all Linux distributions will eventually require remote hardware attestation, where users don't actually have the keys?
Maybe I'm naive, maybe I trust my distribution too much (Arch btw), but I don't see that happening. Probably Ubuntu and some other more commercial OSes might, but we'll still have choices in what OS/distribution to use, so just "vote with your partitions" or whatever.
Re: Devuan – Debian Without Systemd
#44As a passionate systemd hater I still will not go back to using older bash-based initsystems and thus devuan. I strongly believe that systemd brand is a worst thing that happened to Linux, hindering the spread and innovation in the Linux space, but at the same time I have to admit that systemd-as-pid1 is the best init system out there.
I remember the time before systemd and there wasn't any innovation happening - everyone was content with hacky bash scripts.
Re: Devuan – Debian Without Systemd
#45Earlier quoted context omitted.
Many of us starting using Linux before systemd was a thing, and you get used to what you use, so when something new appears that are trying (well, in this case "tried and succeeded at") to replace a bunch of stuff, there is a natural push-back against it. I think systemd also took a relatively non-unixy approach, where it's a big stack to adopt, rather than individual programs that work together well. Typically, we p…
Initially i hated systemd for the change it bought and lennarts behavior, but today I'm wiser. Today i hate systemd for its bad debugability (edit unit & daemon-reload loops), the lockups that happen whenever there is a fifo in the wrong place, and the processes that systemd spawns with no apparent related unit and without means to mask them. And the difficult to disable suspends on machines that never had any busine…
It's that lack of visibility that still makes me low-key hate it, though it's no longer the part of the modern Linux ecosystem that I hate most so I mostly just accept that it's part of watching a platform I used to really like enshittenate itself.
Re: Devuan – Debian Without Systemd
#46As a passionate systemd hater I still will not go back to using older bash-based initsystems and thus devuan. I strongly believe that systemd brand is a worst thing that happened to Linux, hindering the spread and innovation in the Linux space, but at the same time I have to admit that systemd-as-pid1 is the best init system out there.
I remember the time before systemd and there wasn't any innovation happening - everyone was content with hacky bash scripts.
Legible, discoverable, debuggable. They listed the commands the computer needed to run, in the order it needed to run them, to get the system running. It was absolutely beautiful. And then LSB came along and broke it, and as a result of that systemd now manages my home directory and cron tables. Shame, really.
Re: Devuan – Debian Without Systemd
#47Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's good for you! Isn't that a selfish view, though? "Works for me,so I don't care that systemd is creating dependencies everywhere for everyone else". I appreciate that it simplifies some things, but I can't understand that you can't choose which parts of it to install, or even replace parts of it with alternatives. Isn't linux about choice? It feels we're going on a downwards spiral where choice is being taken a…
How is it someone's else's fault for that systemd has dependencies or that others depend on systemd? If I use and like Firefox, and others depend on Firefox, or Firefox depend on others, then it's Firefox fault for you choosing Firefox? I really don't understand the argument you're trying to make. You had choices before systemd, and you still have choices even though systemd is widespread, what's the problem? It isn'…
Red Hat created hard dependencies on systemd in all of the popular software they develop to ensure its adoption.
Re: Devuan – Debian Without Systemd
#48Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's good for you! Isn't that a selfish view, though? "Works for me,so I don't care that systemd is creating dependencies everywhere for everyone else". I appreciate that it simplifies some things, but I can't understand that you can't choose which parts of it to install, or even replace parts of it with alternatives. Isn't linux about choice? It feels we're going on a downwards spiral where choice is being taken a…
How is it someone's else's fault for that systemd has dependencies or that others depend on systemd? If I use and like Firefox, and others depend on Firefox, or Firefox depend on others, then it's Firefox fault for you choosing Firefox? I really don't understand the argument you're trying to make. You had choices before systemd, and you still have choices even though systemd is widespread, what's the problem? It isn'…
With everything depending on systemd interfaces, its an exhausting uphill battle to run anything desktop-like without systemd.
Want to run xterm? Requires Xorg. rootless Xorg requires udev, udev turned into a systemd component. want to run xterm without systemd? good luck, you are now the maintainer of your own LFS.
Re: Devuan – Debian Without Systemd
#49Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Unnecessary entanglements The problems with systemd are: * that once it was adopted, every single package started requiring it * which meant that packages that previously could run everywhere, now could only run on systemd-based systems * binary logs - a solution that solved nothing but created problems * which locked out any system that wasn't linux * which locked out any linux system that didn't want to use it *…
> * "bUt yOu DoNt hAVe tO uSE it" - tell that to the remote attestation crowd, of which Poettering is a founding member of. see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46784572 - soon you'll have to use systemD because nothing else can be used. You're saying that because the person who made systemd now work on hardware attestation, all Linux distributions will eventually require remote hardware attestation, where users…
If you build remote attestation into your product, corporate entities will require it. Just look at Android - What phones today give you unlimited root? If you have rooted, what applications have you broken? If you root, what e-fuses have you blown in your CPU meaning it can never be un-rooted? Android, at the start, was open and freely modified - not so much anymore. Companies like Google can and have cut off access to user's data, without recourse. You can't modify your phone, so you don't own your phone. You just pay rent until they don't support it anymore.
Re: Devuan – Debian Without Systemd
#50So how do you configure it? Just through some random mess of unintegrated incomplete long abandoned half baked subsystems? I really want to know, what do you use instead?
A quick perusal of the site yields this page, which tells you what it uses by default: sysvinit.
https://www.devuan.org/os/init-freedom
It lists other options. It also lists other operating systems that don't use systemd.
I think what I hate most about systemd is that it has seemingly indoctrinated so many into believing that there are no viable alternatives, only some random mess of unintegrated incomplete long abandoned half-baked subsystems.