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Devuan – Debian Without Systemd

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Re: Devuan – Debian Without Systemd

#21

Post by McDyver »

GuestFAUniverse wrote: post #9

I don't care: I can administer with relatively high confidence any Redhat- or Debian-derivate. Thanks to systems. Most issues regarding systemd I encountered were due to a halfway adoption (Debian). Some things like timers are a bit more cumbersome than "the old way", but I wouldn't want to miss the added robustness. Most things systemd implements lead to _less_ issues. And writing a systemd unit is pretty easy, cont…

That's good for you!

Isn't that a selfish view, though? "Works for me,so I don't care that systemd is creating dependencies everywhere for everyone else".

I appreciate that it simplifies some things, but I can't understand that you can't choose which parts of it to install, or even replace parts of it with alternatives.

Isn't linux about choice? It feels we're going on a downwards spiral where choice is being taken away from us in every domain

Re: Devuan – Debian Without Systemd

#26

Post by embedding-shape »

McDyver wrote: post #21
GuestFAUniverse wrote: post #9

I don't care: I can administer with relatively high confidence any Redhat- or Debian-derivate. Thanks to systems. Most issues regarding systemd I encountered were due to a halfway adoption (Debian). Some things like timers are a bit more cumbersome than "the old way", but I wouldn't want to miss the added robustness. Most things systemd implements lead to _less_ issues. And writing a systemd unit is pretty easy, cont…

That's good for you! Isn't that a selfish view, though? "Works for me,so I don't care that systemd is creating dependencies everywhere for everyone else". I appreciate that it simplifies some things, but I can't understand that you can't choose which parts of it to install, or even replace parts of it with alternatives. Isn't linux about choice? It feels we're going on a downwards spiral where choice is being taken a…

How is it someone's else's fault for that systemd has dependencies or that others depend on systemd?

If I use and like Firefox, and others depend on Firefox, or Firefox depend on others, then it's Firefox fault for you choosing Firefox?

I really don't understand the argument you're trying to make. You had choices before systemd, and you still have choices even though systemd is widespread, what's the problem? It isn't modular enough? Use something else then that is modular.

Re: Devuan – Debian Without Systemd

#27

Post by antonyh »

Love/hate systemd as I might, it's been rock solid everywhere I've used it, and I've used it heavily. It has it's quirks, as does the init-scripts that came before, and launchd on OSX (not sure what the modern equivalent is for MacOS).

However, the systemd journal raw format is binary data and would much rather a plain text log. All things being equal I'd rather deal with human readable files.

Re: Devuan – Debian Without Systemd

#28

Post by embedding-shape »

dashzebra wrote: post #25

Honest question here: why do people hate systemd so much?

Many of us starting using Linux before systemd was a thing, and you get used to what you use, so when something new appears that are trying (well, in this case "tried and succeeded at") to replace a bunch of stuff, there is a natural push-back against it.

I think systemd also took a relatively non-unixy approach, where it's a big stack to adopt, rather than individual programs that work together well. Typically, we prefer the latter instead of the former, so some pushback is because of that too.

Re: Devuan – Debian Without Systemd

#29

Post by XorNot »

remix2000 wrote: post #7

"Tricycle – Car Without Engine" Honestly though, the argument against systemd is that it moves too much stuff into init, but I don't think it does enough of that, it's still extremely conservative, like, SD-DBus should be using binder x-port IMO.

The thing is systemd really doesn't: the things people claim "shouldn't be in an init system" aren't - but there are systemd branded versions of a lot of basic facilities because you generally need something like them in a usable system.

And a lot of those utilities are just straight better then the alternatives, or at least make a decent practicality vs correctness trade off for desktop Linux.

systemd-cryptenroll for example is just straight up much easier to use for most applications of FDE, unless you're really doing network unlocking with something like Clevis.

Re: Devuan – Debian Without Systemd

#30

Post by embedding-shape »

egorfine wrote: post #19

As a passionate systemd hater I still will not go back to using older bash-based initsystems and thus devuan. I strongly believe that systemd brand is a worst thing that happened to Linux, hindering the spread and innovation in the Linux space, but at the same time I have to admit that systemd-as-pid1 is the best init system out there.

> hindering the spread and innovation in the Linux space

What "innovations" have been prevented or hindered by systemd? I guess you could argue "well, we can't know" but then what is the argument here really? I'm guessing there is something concrete your thinking about here, that systemd made impossible, but I'm not understanding what you're referencing, I can't recall anything like that.

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