Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Yes, It's Fascism

theatlantic.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

211–220 of 439 posts

Re: Yes, It's Fascism

#211

Post by tartoran »

tombert wrote: post #181
deeg wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been frustrated by the flagging (because fascism is so real right now) but I've been a moderator in the past and I know it's impossible to keep a large majority happy. It's hard for me to criticize the mods much.

Yeah, I’ve been a mod on a relatively small Discord server (~60 users) and even in that scope it can be difficult to keep people happy with stuff I’ve done.

Best way to mod is to strive to keep discourse civil (by setting up a policy) but at the same time let people talk about what hey want to talk. Not letting them talk because they may fight or disagree is a patronizing behavior.

Re: Yes, It's Fascism

#212

Post by solaire_oa »

p4bl0 wrote: post #22

An additional short read which is really worth it: Il fascismo eterno by Umberto Eco, in which the author describes 14 properties of fascists regimes. It's been translated in English as Ur-fascism and is available online for free at the anarchist library: https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/umberto-eco-ur-fasci... .

To be honest, I found this essay a bit meandering and I lost interest in reading the whole thing (coming off the heels of re-reading Civil Disobedience, which by comparison is immediately forthright and to the point).

Skipping ahead to the 14 properties, however, points 5, 7, 11, and 12 are probably the most evident in the present moment.

Re: Yes, It's Fascism

#213

Post by zzleeper »

dang wrote: post #210
mickle00 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really wish there was more transparency around mod actions

Let me see if I can outline how we approach this in a way that might make sense to you... People use the word "transparency" to mean different things. Here are the ways in which I think it's fair to say we're transparent about mod actions: (1) we explain the principles that we apply, frequently and at length; and (2) we're happy to answer questions, including about specific cases. What we don't do is publish a comple…

The problem is that a relatively small group of people (flaggers) just veto what we see and don't see. This made sense when we relied on flagging to just remove spam, useless posts, etc. but its now being used to remove anything that goes against MAGA.

I'm pretty sure that if you sqldump the list of flaggers of this and other posts (like the MN posts) you will find it's not a uniformly distributed list of users.

Re: Yes, It's Fascism

#214

Post by dang »

zzleeper wrote: post #213
dang wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me see if I can outline how we approach this in a way that might make sense to you... People use the word "transparency" to mean different things. Here are the ways in which I think it's fair to say we're transparent about mod actions: (1) we explain the principles that we apply, frequently and at length; and (2) we're happy to answer questions, including about specific cases. What we don't do is publish a comple…

The problem is that a relatively small group of people (flaggers) just veto what we see and don't see. This made sense when we relied on flagging to just remove spam, useless posts, etc. but its now being used to remove anything that goes against MAGA. I'm pretty sure that if you sqldump the list of flaggers of this and other posts (like the MN posts) you will find it's not a uniformly distributed list of users.

You've replied before I even had a chance to add a second sentence! Edit: admittedly it is taking longer than usual...

I've answered that point many times, e.g. recently here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46378818. If you take a look at that and have a question that isn't answered there (or here), I'd be happy to take a crack at it.

I haven't had a chance to look at the flaggers of these recent stories to verify that they fit the same pattern, but the pattern is so well-established that it would be shocking if they didn't. Btw, when you say "anything that goes against MAGA", the converse is the case as well (possibly even a bit more so). And when I say (quoting the comment I just linked to):

> There are some accounts that abuse flags in the following sense: they only ever flag political stories, and their flags are always aligned with the same political position. When we see accounts doing that, we usually take away their flagging rights.

... I didn't add that we do this the same way in either political direction, because that goes without saying, or ought to. But I'm saying it explicitly here.

Re: Yes, It's Fascism

#215

Post by tombert »

tartoran wrote: post #211
tombert wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I’ve been a mod on a relatively small Discord server (~60 users) and even in that scope it can be difficult to keep people happy with stuff I’ve done.

Best way to mod is to strive to keep discourse civil (by setting up a policy) but at the same time let people talk about what hey want to talk. Not letting them talk because they may fight or disagree is a patronizing behavior.

Makes enough sense. I'm not a mod of that server anymore because I got an in argument with the server's owner, and decided to leave, so I haven't gotten to practice my mod stuff in awhile.

Re: Yes, It's Fascism

#216

Post by willmarch »

eudamoniac wrote: post #169

I read through every comment in this thread and no one seems to be addressing that the people voted for this . They'll probably vote for it again in the midterms and/or 2028. You're despairing over a democratic outcome. What do you actually propose that would fix this? Disenfranchise half the country? Outlaw things people are voting for to happen? Any criticism needs to address how we democratically counter this regi…

You can't vote away the Constitutional rights of other people. ICE is regularly violating the Constitution and being encouraged to do so by those in power. Unless multiple amendments were removed from the Constitution without anybody noticing, your point about "the people voted for this" is an absurd and ridiculous attempt to justify real abuse of power and anti-democratic actions.

If we can't agree as a people that the Constitution applies to everyone equally then it isn't a problem with democracy, it's a problem with fascism and must dealt with as such.

Re: Yes, It's Fascism

#217

Post by hysan »

mickle00 wrote: post #129
messe wrote: post #112

This should not have been flagged off the front page. I really worry for the people in the US, but I'm hopeful it's hegemony is ending.

I really wish there was more transparency around mod actions

I think it isn’t mod actions but rather the very likely fact that there is a small, but large enough group of flaggers who will act in unison to remove any such post from the front page. If you want an affirmation of the efficacy of the moderation system, what you should want is transparency into the voting behaviors of the population. If you see a heavy voting correlation between flagged posts and either a specific set of users, voting timing (these types of posts get flagged much earlier than those that lean the other way politically), or both, then there is cause for concern that the algorithm of HN’s self moderation tools is being gamed. My bet is that it’s not the mods doing anything, but rather that there is already a critical mass of flag happy users that are controlling what gets to stay on the front page. I think it would be very interesting to see a write up on this topic, but it’s highly unlikely because I think it would violate privacy and user expectations of anonymity.

Re: Yes, It's Fascism

#218

Post by [deleted] »

tombert wrote: post #205
dang wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the mods like to avoid anything involving "politics" since it's likely to start a flame war. You're correct that we like to avoid flamewars, but not correct to say "anything involving politics". We don't try to (or want to) avoid politics altogether—a certain number of threads with political overlap have always been part of the mix here*. For (reams of) past explanations see https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&pa…

Let me just preempt this by saying that I think you and tomhow do a very good job at moderating, and I'm just some goober on the internet sitting on a high-horse, so take what I say with as much respect as possible. Hacker News is my favorite forum in no small part because this forum's users are, on average, a lot more educated than the average internet user. If not formally, a lot of the people here still do value l…

[deleted]

Re: Yes, It's Fascism

#219

Post by CamperBob2 »

tombert wrote: post #203
fugalfervor wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are also instructed illegally. They are told they don't need warrants signed by a judge in order to arrest someone. The Stanford Prison Experiment is a good analogue to what we are seeing with ICE. People empowered to be cruel. And they are given the message (from the president!) they have absolute immunity, and instructed to regard the law as a set of nonbinding guidelines. The Supreme Court played a role in th…

I think the results of the Stanford Prison Experiment have been pretty heavily disputed, and it cannot be re-tested due to ethical concerns. I personally don't think it's making the agents worse, but rather that it's very heavily selecting for very bad people. If you have a job where people can be violent and abusive with little-to-no oversight, you are going to select for people who want to do violent and abusive th…

Milgram's a better example, without the baggage that Zimbardo brought to the table. Milgram's lesson: if an authority figure calls for an illegal, harmful, or unethical action, they won't have to go very far down the line until they find someone willing to carry it out, even if the first couple of people refuse.

ICE is said to be paying signing bonuses up to $50,000 [1]. That must seem like a fortune to the sorts of people they are recruiting... people who would happily do stuff like this for free if given permission.

1: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cqle5newg0no

Re: Yes, It's Fascism

#220

Post by atomic_reed »

JeremyNT wrote: post #195
throw0101c wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you are debating whether to read this article, read it. It’s comprehensive and precise, and although political in substance […] Also perhaps worth noting that David Frum, former speech writer to Dubya Bush, writes for The Atlantic (and has been against Trump from the start: see his book Trumpocracy ): * https://www.theatlantic.com/author/david-frum/ So we're not just talking about 'leftists' criticizing these ac…

The left / right split isn't really meaningful in the United States right now. The split is currently between people who believe in and want a functional and equitable government, and those who are fine with a kleptocracy as long as they are personally the beneficiaries (or at least, the people they dislike suffer worse). People like Frum were quick to notice this and get on the correct side of it. Unfortunately, the…

[flagged]
Post reply on HN