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Deutsche Telekom is throttling the internet

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Re: Deutsche Telekom is throttling the internet

#141

Post by yayachiken »

direwolf20 wrote: post #124
yayachiken wrote: post #104

Small tangent, but I feel like it is a good time to drop the term "net neutrality", which covers way too much ground. In the past in political discussions, the term "violation of net neutrality" was used to protest multiple different issues: * Traffic shaping (e.g. slowing down Bittorrent traffic) * Traffic fast lanes (pay for priority access to some content providers) * Selective zero-rating (exclude some providers…

There's no such thing as paid peering, is there? There's only being a customer. DT wants you to buy transit to get access to their customers.

Peering just means that two AS physically connect to each other directly. Whether this peering is paid or not is independent from the technical implementation.

Just nearly everybody except Telekom is doing this on a liberal and informal not-even-handshake basis. On ISP scale, you either invest in infrastructure, or pay rent for network ports or cross-links, and you generally want your traffic usage to be smooth without spikes, and also go to the destination without going through your expensive ports more than once. So general connectivity is more important than any kind of traffic metering.

Re: Deutsche Telekom is throttling the internet

#142

Post by embedding-shape »

direwolf20 wrote: post #121
sgjohnson wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ISPs are the worst. DTAG is not just a run-of-the-mill consumer ISP. They are a global Tier-1 carrier. Which of course makes their behavior all that much worse.

You don't want a tier 1 carrier as your ISP because they are severely limited in connectivity — they only connect to paying customers and other tier 1s. They are to be used as a last resort by the tier 2 ISPs, who provide good packet routing by selecting the best routes from among several backbones. Never thought I'd see this play out in practice, especially with a consumer ISP. Normally this comes up with server hos…

> You don't want a tier 1 carrier as your ISP

The best part about ISPs, is that usually who have very few choices, sometimes only one! Where I grew up, we had the choice of "broadband" (via antennas between an island and mainland) with one ISP, or modem with any telephone company. Eventually, proper cables where put, and we had a choice between 6 different operators.

Where I live now, I only have 3 options for ISPs with fiber, even though I live right outside a huge metropolitan area.

Re: Deutsche Telekom is throttling the internet

#143

Post by ThrowawayTestr »

ahoka wrote: post #114
integralid wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll bite (I'm not German but I'm close culturally): * Old Androids are not repairable because they're shit, not because a megacorp works hard to make repair impossible * Old Androids may be hacked by a pegasus-like software (just like most new smartphones anyway), but at least the operating system does not lock you into its own closed ecosystem. You may disagree, and correctly, because it's in part irrational, but m…

I have bought an Android phone and I couldn’t even change the font used or use an ad blocker on the browser it comes with. It comes with advertisements on the home screen and if I disable them half of the system functions stop working. Seems it’s not open at all. Sent it back the next week.

Buy a Samsung not the cheapest possible device from a random Chinese seller

Re: Deutsche Telekom is throttling the internet

#144

Post by dgxyz »

integralid wrote: post #21
dgxyz wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The one that always gets me is security and privacy paranoid and lecture me on the Stasi and using Apple phones and how they aren't repairable but then goes and uses unpatched rotten old Android they can't fix anyway and sticks fingers in ears. Nearly every German I know does this and I know a lot of Germans as half my family is German and my ex-partner is German.

I'll bite (I'm not German but I'm close culturally): * Old Androids are not repairable because they're shit, not because a megacorp works hard to make repair impossible * Old Androids may be hacked by a pegasus-like software (just like most new smartphones anyway), but at least the operating system does not lock you into its own closed ecosystem. You may disagree, and correctly, because it's in part irrational, but m…

I'd believe there was some truth in that if they used any open apps but they just lock themselves into Google's ecosystem instead. All their data is siloed in some US cloud.

If you run like that it doesn't matter what phone you use and your privacy and openness arguments are moot.

Re: Deutsche Telekom is throttling the internet

#145

Post by u8080 »

anthonj wrote: post #5

Germany always surprise me with continuous contradiction in their society. Largest economy in eu but very unstable and riddled with wierd burocracy. Strongest worker protection, but very large amount of lobbysm. Most advanced railway system in eu, transformed into a joke by interdiction from said lobbies. You have to pay a "radio tax" to help funding press and keep it independent, but then fuck net neutrality. And I…

>You have to pay a "radio tax" to help funding press

I mean, same as in most countries taxpayers effectively sponsor government propaganda.

Re: Deutsche Telekom is throttling the internet

#146

Post by perching_aix »

direwolf20 wrote: post #132
stephen_g wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are complicated, but standardised and commoditised. Ubiquiti, for example, sells an ONT (fibre modem) in a SFP form factor for US$39 [1], or a little standalone unit with an Ethernet port for US$49 [2]. 1. https://store.ui.com/us/en/category/fiber-gpon/products/uf-i... 2. https://store.ui.com/us/en/category/fiber-gpon/products/wave...

For comparison: you can bring your own DOCSIS modem to a cable network, even though all the houses on the street are connected to the same cable and you could jam it, or send a voltage spike to break everyone's modem.

Not very familiar with DOCSIS and cable; the story I'm getting from my nearest friendly LLM is that while you could bring your cable modem, it'd have to be a pre-approved model, and that the firmware and configuration would be under ISP control, unlike with DSL modems. Is that wrong?

Re: Deutsche Telekom is throttling the internet

#147

Post by yayachiken »

sgjohnson wrote: post #135
yayachiken wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DTAG are also a consumer ISP. A consumer ISP should be considered a utility, and utilities can also be forced to provide certain services. In addition, Internet Exchanges have become so critical for the Internet architecture that they should also have some privileged status. Legislation could focus on the following general rules, without favoring some providers over the others: * If you participate on an IX node, the…

Letting the government regulate peering will be the death of the internet as we know it. I don't believe that there's a single lawmaker, anywhere in the world, who understands anything about the fundamentals of IP transit. But no doubt they have ISP buddies who understand everything about it, and no doubt they'll be the ones actually writing the legislation.

Well, there is always a regulatory measure that would be a lot easier to implement: Lawmakers could just disallow Tier 1 carriers to provide consumer Internet access. (This forced separation of business domain already has precedent in other sectors, e.g. energy companies having to separate network upkeep from energy trading or banks having to split their investment branch from the credit branch)

And I have a feeling that as soon as that is seriously discussed, the current exploitation of market power will stop rather quickly, without any need for actual regulation.

Re: Deutsche Telekom is throttling the internet

#148

Post by retired »

Blemiono wrote: post #52
ccozan wrote: post #9

Telekom is well known for the crappy service - but they have a de facto monopoly. For example, when it rains, the line goes down where I live. Solution: I got my Starlink. 3x speed. No crappy service. Weather independent. And surprinsingly cheaper ( 40 euros vs 45 ) . [ as much as I do not like Musk & co, this is a real useful thing he build for the mankind - internet everywere from sattelite ]

[flagged]

This person just wants internet that doesn't frequently cut out.

Don't blame them for their choices. Blame Telekom and its shareholders for not being able to reliably supply broadband internet in 2026. Blame the government for not having consumer protection regarding right to internet access. But don't blame this person for just doing what is necessary for having basic internet access.

Re: Deutsche Telekom is throttling the internet

#149

Post by franga2000 »

jesprenj wrote: post #137

Slovenian ISP T-2.net also violates local network neutrality laws here by requiring customers to pay extra to unblock some special TCP ports, like 25 and 53, meaning they block selfhosting email and dns servers without additional payment. I filed a complaint to the national regulator AKOS. They first responded with agreeing with me, but nothing was fixed for many months, and upon emailing the regulator again, I recei…

Calling this "paying to unlock ports" is disingenuous. I'm also a T-2 customer and have run into this before. They block ports on dynamic IPs, but if you pay +2€/mo for static, this is unlocked. This seems reasonable. If you're not paying for static IPv4, you're paying for "internet access", whether that's a rarely chaning dynamic IPv4, a constantly changing IPv4 or full CGNAT.

Would you also say your mobile phone operator is violating net neutrality by putting you behind CGNAT that you can't forward arbitrary ports through? You can pay a bunch of money to get a private APN and get public IPv4 addresses. Would you call that an unblock fee?

Re: Deutsche Telekom is throttling the internet

#150

Post by retired »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #42
blauditore wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excuse me, I remember when DSL was the latest and greatest, it can't possibly be this old. :')

That would be ~25 years ago. I remember getting my first ADSL connection around 2000 in the Netherlands when that stuff was still very new.

KPN MXstream! Thanks for making me feel old. I got flashbacks of spending multiple evenings configuring PPTP in Linux without being able to access the internet just to get internet access.

I remember having to walk to a buddies home just to check the tutorial:

https://rj.home.xs4all.nl/mxstream/

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