America could have $4 lunch bowls like Japan but for zoning laws • Hacker News Board

Re: America could have $4 lunch bowls like Japan but for zoning laws

#211

Post by iamcalledrob » Fri, Jan 16, 2026, 5:04 PM UTC

t-3 wrote: post #200

iamcalledrob wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is totally possible to get a $4 lunch in the UK. Basic pre-packaged sandwiches can be had for under $2. For about $4.75 you can get a sandwich, pastry, and a latte from just about any of the chain corner shops (Tesco Express etc) It's not gourmet, but it's a solid affordable option that millions of people eat every day. There's no real equivalent of this in the US sadly.

You can get pre-packaged sandwiches in the US (and a bunch of other stuff too, including hot food). I don't buy them and don't know the exact price, but they aren't expensive, definitely under $5. Eating from corner stores and gas stations is just usually looked down on.

Pre-packaged sandwiches in the US are typically more in the $8-10 range, and that's just for the (sad) sandwich. It also tends to be much more depressing than what you'd get in the UK. Barely edible.

Re: America could have $4 lunch bowls like Japan but for zoning laws

#212

Post by taeric » Fri, Jan 16, 2026, 5:07 PM UTC

AlotOfReading wrote: post #184

taeric wrote: post #76

So many odd questions raised in this article. Literally each section seems to just hand wave a lot of things. And, look, I am all for attacking some regulations; but I have to confess the requirement for multiple sinks is going to be far down my list of regulations that have to go. Odd to see it be one of the top mentioned ones, here. The biggest question, for me, is raised when the complaint is dropped that we spend…

Density is also a problem caused by zoning/permitting regulations. SF, LA, and even NYC should all be more dense than they currently are. Not being able to increase their density just means that prices have gone up instead.

I can get behind that message, to a large extent. The rest of the complaints are largely all downstream of that, though? The reason places don't have the same cheap food options that denser locations have is pretty much fully down to the density question.

And sure, we can tackle making places denser. A large hurdle there is that people want both the space that they currently have, along with the benefits of higher density. And that just doesn't work.

Re: America could have $4 lunch bowls like Japan but for zoning laws

#213

Post by vel0city » Fri, Jan 16, 2026, 5:08 PM UTC

ecshafer wrote: post #123

systemtest wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's by design that only people with stable housing can vote? I bet you loved pre-1965 America.

Actually yes, that is by design. There is a reason the US had property ownership as a requirement to vote in the constitution. Whether removing that requirement was correct or not is up for debate. But there is a distinction in a democracy between an active citizen and a passive citizen . An active citizen is someone that has skin in the game and is a willing participant in the process. A passive citizen is someone t…

Everyone affected by the laws passed have "skin in the game".

Someone renting an apartment and working a job in a community definitely has skin in the game in regards to local tax rates, building regulations, public amenities, etc.

Re: America could have $4 lunch bowls like Japan but for zoning laws

#214

Post by PaulDavisThe1st » Fri, Jan 16, 2026, 5:12 PM UTC

systemtest wrote: post #70

trinix912 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think makes someone who’s pretty much just passing by entitled to push their opinions on the locals who’ve lived there their entire lives? Especially when that person likely won’t suffer the longterm consequences of it

Not talking about passing by, talking about people living there for years.

What would you propose as a way to differentiate the two?

Re: America could have $4 lunch bowls like Japan but for zoning laws

#215

Post by veidr » Fri, Jan 16, 2026, 5:14 PM UTC

FeloniousHam wrote: post #178

dv_dt wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Protests come when people are pushed into a corner with little other choice. Participation is more prevalent when people have free time in their lives. Our economics has systematically squeezed free time out in favor of more work to most of our workforce, and particularly hard for young people. One reason so many local city policies favor the old, is that they're retired and have the time to participate

When in American history have we had more free time for civic participation?

I think the problem is more like:

When in American history have we had more things that are more engaging¹ competing with civic participation for our free time?

¹: and I think the terrifying answer might be:

    LOL, never, so? Hurry up and die.

Re: America could have $4 lunch bowls like Japan but for zoning laws

#216

Post by quacker » Fri, Jan 16, 2026, 5:15 PM UTC

627467 wrote: post #172

quacker wrote: post #170

This needs more detailed data that normalizes for the amount of food (price per calorie or price per weight or something like that). Yes, a bowl at chipotle in the US might be 2x the price (more, probably) of a Japanese bowl, but it matters if I am getting 2x the calories also. And there are foods in the US that are technically as cost effective, although maybe not as nutritious, like pizza which they mention, that c…

> In Japan, workers rely on healthy lunch bowls for under $4 The title doesn't capture that, but the issue is not that the US can't produce $4 lunches. It's it can't enable cheap(er) healthy lunches

I'm not sure what your point is. Is it about the lunches being specifically healthy?

A rice bowl at Chipotle, for example, is not unhealthy (rice, beans, meat, vegetables). Plenty of restaurant food in the US is perfectly healthy (or, you can look at nutrition facts to know if it is). And if I can take a single US portion size and split it into two lunches that are Japanese-sized portions, then maybe we're getting the same amount food per dollar.

And on the "healthy" point: The article doesn't discuss nutrition facts at all or refer to any specific meals or dishes.

They link to an article concerning the price of Japanese bowls, that mentions "a regular-sized bowl of rice with beef from Japanese fast food chain Yoshinoya, which costs around 468 yen (S$4.25)." I don't know Japanese so it's hard for me to find nutrition information about that particular dish, but I suspect that a beef bowl is high in saturated fat, cholesterol, and sodium (because most stir-fried beef is higher in these things). Is that healthy? Japan as a country has higher sodium intake than the US. Is that healthy? And so on. I suspect a big factor of the "health" of these lunches is that portion sizes are just smaller than in the US (but I have no data).

Re: America could have $4 lunch bowls like Japan but for zoning laws

#217

Post by veidr » Fri, Jan 16, 2026, 5:16 PM UTC

LunaSea wrote: post #161

quaverquaver wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US per official data ~5% have more than one job (and that includes lawyers doing consultancy for example) https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LNS12026620

So that would mean 1 in 10 families that are affected on average. Seems like a lot.

concerning

Re: America could have $4 lunch bowls like Japan but for zoning laws

#218

Post by PaulDavisThe1st » Fri, Jan 16, 2026, 5:16 PM UTC

lern_too_spel wrote: post #187

ecshafer wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually yes, that is by design. There is a reason the US had property ownership as a requirement to vote in the constitution. Whether removing that requirement was correct or not is up for debate. But there is a distinction in a democracy between an active citizen and a passive citizen . An active citizen is someone that has skin in the game and is a willing participant in the process. A passive citizen is someone t…

It was because they thought that landowners would direct the votes of the people who lived on that land. The same reason was given for not allowing women to vote. https://shec.ashp.cuny.edu/items/show/1645 This comes directly from a historical British restriction on voting rights that in turn is an artifact of feudalism. https://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/a1_2_1s3.... Ancient democracies, including th…

> Ancient democracies, including those of Greek city states like Athens, restricted voting to landowners because prior to the invention of the printing press, only aristocrats could understand the issues being voted on.

This is such bullshit. Pre-literate societies were not ignorant societies, they were not stupid societies, they were not issue-free societies. The printing press gave rise to literacy which then gave rise to both books and print-based issue campaigning. But the idea that before people were able to read they were also unable to understand "the issues being voted on" is ridiculous. People ate, built, got sick, got hot, got cold, got injured, were richer or poorer ... everyone had a framework in which to understand "the issues being voted on".

You could argue it wasn't an educated understanding, and that might be correct depending on your understanding of what "education" is. But the idea that people couldn't actually understand stuff until literacy arrived is just ridiculous.

Re: America could have $4 lunch bowls like Japan but for zoning laws

#219

Post by _DeadFred_ » Fri, Jan 16, 2026, 5:16 PM UTC

dv_dt wrote: post #58

milkytron wrote: post #15

I serve as a planning commissioner for my city, and my city just recently tried to overhaul our zoning code to allow for more affordability and better economic outcomes for our citizens and future as a city. Here is what I have learned: In the US, few people participate or care about local laws, zoning, and elections, or even understand why participation may be important. In a citizen ballot to determine if we should…

Protests come when people are pushed into a corner with little other choice. Participation is more prevalent when people have free time in their lives. Our economics has systematically squeezed free time out in favor of more work to most of our workforce, and particularly hard for young people. One reason so many local city policies favor the old, is that they're retired and have the time to participate

This. I fought against a zoning exception (ironic comment) that would allow an asphalt plant near my children's school. When we showed up at meetings, they were canceled and rescheduled at different times for 'reasons'. I managed to get people there every time, but it was tough for parents to get there, and it seemed like the process had been weaponized against our participation.

Re: America could have $4 lunch bowls like Japan but for zoning laws

#220

Post by potato3732842 » Fri, Jan 16, 2026, 5:19 PM UTC

vel0city wrote: post #204

potato3732842 wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who conflate "not actively regulated and inspected with government permission being given before stuff even happens" with "sub par" as if that's not reductive at best is exactly how we got here.

Most people don't make a point to go out of their way to avoid having rules applied if they're intending on following the rules. I don't think its that big of a leap. You're also misreading my comment. I'm not saying they definitely will do a sub-par job, but that its now an option, that they can do it. And given its the cheaper option (up front at least), it probably will happen more often. And especially when it co…

Once again this is a take predicated on bad assumptions.

If you're just doing something and intend to meet or exceed the rules then dealing with government enforcement apparatus is pure overhead. You were always gonna do the right thing so you gain zero upside and have to deal with a potentially capricious and unaccountable (in any practical way) enforcer which is a huge downside.

Second, the rules are chock full of 10,000ft ivory tower view type stuff that makes statistical sense but is inefficient compared to using judgment. But you can't use judgement because the whole point of code is to make everything quantitative so that idiots can inspect other idiots and parties can more efficiently bicker in court and whatnot.