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The Palantir app helping ICE raids in Minneapolis

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Re: The Palantir app helping ICE raids in Minneapolis

#661

Post by t-3 »

tremon wrote: post #376
breakpointalpha wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American life is so much more distributed than European life. Population density and the gigantic geographic distance make these kinds of events feel "remote" even if they are happening in our same state. It's a 17 hour drive from Atlanta, Georgia to Minneapolis for example. On top of that, a lot of Americans are just barely surviving financially, so they are in full bunker mode just making rent. It's a scary time to…

They weren't comparing the entire US to all of Europe. They were comparing Minneapolis and Spain.

Plenty of Minnesotans have come out to protest, just like in other cities where ICE is active. Many people outside the cities, even just in the suburbs, haven't seen any of it at all and it's just something that's happening on TV that doesn't really exist to them. I've never seen an ICE officer in my life, despite living in a area with many immigrants from the Middle East. Minneapolis might as well be Spain to most Americans.

Re: The Palantir app helping ICE raids in Minneapolis

#662

Post by chaps »

Steven420 wrote: post #632
chaps wrote: post #610

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not understanding your point either, so here's how I'm interpreting what you're saying, in good faith: "she was in the way, so it was worth shooting her. fullstop". So I'm struggling to understand why you seem to be okay with shooting someone for being in the way. So please explain to me why you think "obstruction" was worth shooting her.

She wasn't shot for obstructing federal agents. The series of events are as follows: 1. She obstructed federal agents 2. She resisted arrest/detainment 3. She accelerated into a federal agent 4. She was shot

I'm sorry that you think she deserved death.

Re: The Palantir app helping ICE raids in Minneapolis

#663

Post by pstuart »

brightball wrote: post #557
pstuart wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a vast difference between tribal partisan politics and discussing policy as a system of governance (hacking society). I do my best to avoid the former and embrace the latter. That said, there's a disappointingly significant number of HN members who hew to the latter and embrace the current regime. I consider this to be a forum of intellectual engagement, and that those people walk amongst us is quite distress…

The “those people” comment is kinda the issue though isn’t it? I generally try to assume that everyone has good intentions, but we’re all being fed massive amounts of different information. I learned years ago that it wasn’t an issue of people reporting things that were factually inaccurate, it was an issue of people leaving out details to frame the story in the context that supports your readers/viewers belief syste…

That's why I prefaced it with "That said" as an acknowledgement of calling out a different tribe.

There's a nuance to this -- the current political environment is not normal and cannot be emphasized enough. The GOP is now a cult of personality and there is no allegiance to country by its members. Its all to one man, who many believe is wholly unqualified for the job.

Its a well-documented phenomenon that millions of people have joined this cult -- many coming from the other side of the aisle. There is no possible reasoning, dialog, or engagement that can make them reconsider.

I would be classified as a "Lefty" if evaluated on my values, but I actually believe in the value of old school conservatism as of "limited government", the value of families, and the ability to have their own personal relationship with God (I am an atheist but I get it).

One of the things that makes America great is the Constitution -- that we are ostensibly a nation governed by law. The current regime does not share those values and is actively hostile to all who do not worship or pay tribute to their leader.

I've been following US politics for half a century and what's happening now would have been unthinkable even 10 years ago.

Re: The Palantir app helping ICE raids in Minneapolis

#664

Post by drcongo »

asa400 wrote: post #560
embedding-shape wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If all those things happened in Spain where I live, I'm 99% we'd have actual riots on the streets, together with a lot of other unpleasant-but-needed civilian action, until things got better, like we've done in the past (sometimes maybe went slightly overboard with it, but better than nothing). Why are Americans so passive? You're literally transitioning into straight up authoritarianism, yet where are the riots? How…

First, all of what you say is true. I'm going to try to add a little context as someone who is here on the ground, in the city in question. There is the imminent threat of mass death, and no one here is under any illusions about it. Every ICE agent is armed, and most have ready access to automatic weapons. These are not well-trained members of an elite organization with a storied, patriotic culture. ICE is a personal…

This was a really interesting comment and it's definitely made me re-think my outsider perspective. Thanks for posting it and good luck.

Re: The Palantir app helping ICE raids in Minneapolis

#665

Post by mindslight »

alpine_accentor wrote: post #597
_bohm wrote: post #487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think most people involved in protests would not characterize the thing they are resisting as merely "law enforcement". What they are experiencing is an occupation by a politically weaponized paramilitary organization which is going door-to-door in their neighborhoods wearing masks, wielding ARs, yelling at people and brutalizing them. How do you think you would react if this was taking place in your community?

Of course the brutality is not desirable, but to stay in perspective, what would you suggest they do to still enforce the law efficiently but without this forcefulness? They can’t do it the normal way when they are constantly watched and their targets are warned beforehand by whistles and apps and they can’t and shouldn’t back down on enforcing the law.

Efficiency has never been a goal of US governance, especially in how it interacts with the People. This is deliberate. Read up on the events around the American Revolution if you want to see why that is. There are actually a lot of arguments being trotted out today that were trotted out back then, by the British.

Re: The Palantir app helping ICE raids in Minneapolis

#666

Post by mosura »

ceejayoz wrote: post #634
mosura wrote: post #593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Modern leftists are definitionally promoting expansion of government power - it is a core consequence of their beliefs. The late Murray Bookchin was the exception that proves the rule, and he was hardly popular or widely known, and made some astonishingly prescient interviews before he died about the direction it was all headed in.

> Modern leftists are definitionally promoting expansion of government power… Care to name a specific example?

Obvious examples: health care, education, social benefits provision, public transit, arms control. All involve expansions of the state bureaucracy and decision making power.

This is tangential to whether those things are good/bad in and of themselves.

The reason Bookchin was interesting, and why he was isolated even from Sanders, was he accurately saw any hierarchy as oppressive, whether class, capitalistic, cooperative, or even a temporarily well meaning state bureaucracy. It also says something that such a person didn’t manage to create a sustainable movement.

The classic right wing policy which confused everyone was “the negative income tax” that Milton Friedman was so keen on, yet it is UBI by another name. Aside from advantages compared to a minimum wage the important point is by being universal you remove the scope for bureaucratic decision making, so they went to enormous lengths to ensure it never happened.

Re: The Palantir app helping ICE raids in Minneapolis

#667

Post by Steven420 »

fzeroracer wrote: post #646
Steven420 wrote: post #615

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saw the video that you are referring to and it looks like the person is in fact resisting. Also I would not call that good law enforcement and don't agree with the officer doing that

Resisting? Where? Can you point to me in the 44 second clip where he is resisting? Because when the ICE agents move out of the way he's sitting there, completely still. He's so still that they lift him up entirely, with zero resistance or movement. What the fuck do you think he should do in order to not be resisting arrest, given that he's already completely still? You can see between the officers legs the only movem…

It seemed like he was resisting to me because the agents were struggling to get him in handcuffs. Without a full video it is difficult to tell for sure though. The video is missing a lot of context. What happened before that video clip would make all the difference in determining whether or not he was resisting and how much force was necessary. Again I don't condone the agent kneeing the man in the head

Re: The Palantir app helping ICE raids in Minneapolis

#668

Post by foldr »

krapp wrote: post #549
m_fayer wrote: post #528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(White) Americans of the center and left have long since lost the conviction that you may just need to bleed for your children’s freedom. It’ll come back, hopefully not too late.

The thing is, to most white Americans, their childrens' freedom isn't at stake. The majority of white voters have always supported Trump, and probably support ICE, whereas most of the rest simply don't don't consider it their problem. And unfortunately that probably won't change until ICE kills more of them and makes it their problem.

> The thing is, to most white Americans, their childrens' freedom isn't at stake.

It absolutely is at stake, they just haven’t realized it yet. (Insert obligatory “first they came for” quote.)

Re: The Palantir app helping ICE raids in Minneapolis

#669

Post by newfriend »

array_key_first wrote: post #630
jr-throw wrote: post #576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The perspective that is constantly missing from these one-sided ICE threads on HN and Reddit (but often exposed in videos after the fact): What are the civilians/protesters actually doing in these situations? This kind of "I'm a sovereign citizen, you can't touch me" behavior used to be rightfully belittled by the same crowd only a few years ago.

Yeah, all those sovereign citizens going to their... doctors appointments? Really? This is how far we're shoving the boot up our ass these days? Okay. Look. We have so much evidence of misconduct by ICE that the only reasonable thing to do is just assume there is misconduct. There's no Le Enlightened Centrist take here - these people act like gangs, and have zero respect for Americans citizens or their property.

[flagged]

Re: The Palantir app helping ICE raids in Minneapolis

#670

Post by plorg »

brightball wrote: post #245
stackghost wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what happens when one allows oneself to hide in "safe spaces" (like HN) where there's a "no politics" rule enabling people to hide and avoid being confronted with the ramifications of their actions. The entire world runs on technology now. It's all inherently political.

I'm going to defend the HN "no politics" rule here. The reason "no politics" zones exist is because there are enough people going out of their way to shout at everybody, everywhere, in every corner of the internet and enough people are tired of it that they flock to...no politics zones. In real life, a person like that confronts you...you remove yourself from the situation, because that person who can't stop shouting…

Trying to decide how to categorize those giant first page threads from 2022 where Brian Armstrong would complain about activist employees or Google employees would stage walkouts about their employer doing contracts with the Department of Defense, the comments would be chock full of "yeah, actually a company should fire those employees, because business isn't about politics" then a few years later Coinbase drops $150M on the elections and Google is happily working with Palantir to build dragnet surveillance of US citizens.
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