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Let's call a murder a murder

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Re: Let's call a murder a murder

#101

Post by cbeach »

KittenInABox wrote: post #8

Inquiry, since I know anti immigrant sentiment is on the rise in other countries. How are other countries increasing their enforcement of their immigration laws? Are there also chaotic situations where their immigration enforcers are shooting people in cars? Are there better ways for rising anti-immigrant sentiment to result in stricter enforcement with less violence?

I’m in the UK. There is strong anti-ILLEGAL-immigrant sentiment, because hundreds of thousands of undocumented men originating in Africa and the Middle East have illegally crossed the English Channel from France and then made asylum claims, meaning the UK taxpayer is forced (by treaty) to house them and feed them. These are quite evidently opportunists. A large proportion are young fighting-age men, and most are fleeing countries where there is no current conflict.

As a taxpayer in a cost of living crisis I resent seeing hotels full of these chancers.

And I don’t think women and girls are safe with them around, given the staggering sexual crime statistics

https://www.migrationcentral.co.uk/p/up-to-third-of-sexual-a...

Call me “anti-immigrant” if you like. I don’t care. I’m voting for fairness and safety in the next election.

Re: Let's call a murder a murder

#102

Post by throwawayqqq11 »

bananabiscuit wrote: post #100
throwawayqqq11 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And my point is, apply regular human behavior to the scene. Drivers know the ground they are on and the acceleration curves of their cars. Arguing over split seconds to derive a malicious intention of the driver is cherry picking. We all know those near collisions we dodged closely from own experiences, thats why its so easy for us to imagine such an outcome in that video, which was prob her expectation too.

Alright, at the very least, can we admit that there is an argument to be made here? The innocence or guilt of the officer does seem to hinge on some fine details, I’m just surprised that anybody is already claiming with certainty that this is or isn’t murder.

Its messy for sure. POs are allowed to use force to stop violent/aggressive suspects in cars, so he might get cleared of the coming murder charge. We will see.

The bigger picture isnt messy at all though. Deescalation is usually the way to go with protestors because they usually dont have harmful intent. This intention seems to be completely missing, from the exexutive layer down to officers in the streets.

Re: Let's call a murder a murder

#103

Post by bananabiscuit »

mindslight wrote: post #97
throwawayqqq11 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It gets quite clear, when you change the setup a little bit. 1) Make the PO a regular human without a gun and you can imagine, that any normal person would have made just a quick sidestep to avoid collision, like most of us have experienced in person too. Use of force was totally unjustified, esp. when you combine it with: 2) Change the intetion of the driver to really want to harm the person ~2m in front of the car.…

Focusing on the minutiae of how the victim reacted when she was already well into fight-or-flight mode is a red herring. Real police officers [0] are trained to deescalate situations . Because needlessly turning up the heat results in very bad outcomes for everyone involved. Meanwhile, these ICE "officers" aggressively created and violently escalated a situation arising from a traffic infraction at best [1]. They did…

I would agree with this more if Renee was just a random person that ICE decided to give a hard time. But in this case, it was her decision to become involved and attempt to obstruct the officers from doing the job they explicitly have the authority to do [1]. Also in this case Renee is the one who made the first life threatening action. The fight-or-flight situation is her own doing.

People should protest but there are clearly very stupid ways of going about it.

[1] the streets are not the place to decide whether that authority is legitimate, ethical, moral, etc.

Re: Let's call a murder a murder

#104

Post by metaphysicalyes »

lostmsu wrote: post #81
tim333 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've lost the link to the main one I was thinking of but there are some pictures here https://x.com/GregTSargent/status/2009319825554985218 It's not quite as clear cut as I thought as the car maybe nudged the shooter but the driver had definitely turned the steering away from him and was trying to miss him and get away. Also the car's direction didn't change after the shots were fired and it didn't come close to runn…

There's a frame in the YouTube video I linked where the officer is right in front of the car, the car wheel is still turned toward the driver window (so if no steering is done it would run over the officer, moreover it is directed to where the officer ends up in the end), and the front wheels with a skid starts pulling the car forward in that direction. In fact, the car goes toward the officer for about 15 frames of…

Lets assume you are right. How do you justify the 2nd and 3rd shot from the side window? Very curious how your mind works.

Re: Let's call a murder a murder

#105

Post by metaphysicalyes »

thefz wrote: post #28
vdupras wrote: post #11

And it's flagged, of course. Will somebody vouch for this? I know what you're thinking. This doesn't encourage curiosity! This is politics! Same old, same old. HN! Come on, how myopic must you be to not see that a working democracy is a condition sine qua non of your dear curiosity. You see what's happening in Iran, right? Well, they don't! Put your glasses on, HN, you're not seeing shit.

> And it's flagged, of course. > Will somebody vouch for this? It's a false dichotomy and this mode of black/white thinking is everywhere online. Unless you agree 100% with every single atom and detail of >THING X Had a similar discussion in the thread for the hacker doxxing conservative dating sites: while I disagree with white supremacists I still think doxxing people online is wrong (for both sides). And for Grube…

The current administration has made clear that right or wrong is the question of which side has more power. And appeal to human morals has lost its power in dopamine addled society rife with mental issues. To assert their will people resort to alternative means.

Re: Let's call a murder a murder

#106

Post by praptak »

vdupras wrote: post #11

And it's flagged, of course. Will somebody vouch for this? I know what you're thinking. This doesn't encourage curiosity! This is politics! Same old, same old. HN! Come on, how myopic must you be to not see that a working democracy is a condition sine qua non of your dear curiosity. You see what's happening in Iran, right? Well, they don't! Put your glasses on, HN, you're not seeing shit.

Yeah. The US government blatantly excusing a murder in broad daylight? Not intellectually interesting at all.

Better discuss another article about using AI for coding.

Re: Let's call a murder a murder

#107

Post by UncleMeat »

lostmsu wrote: post #36
tim333 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure this will play well for them politically. A fair bit of what got Trump elected was saying they'd protect ordinary Americans from immigrant criminals. Now they have footage of a white middle class mum in an suv, pretty much their median voter, being shot dead by their thugs and saying don't believe you eyes and clear video evidence, she tried to run an officer over when she obviously didn't.

[flagged]

The footage from the killer is now available.

Her last words were "we are not mad at you." His first words after she died were "fucking bitch."

Re: Let's call a murder a murder

#108

Post by DerArzt »

_DeadFred_ wrote: post #74
techblueberry wrote: post #4

Just found: "The agent who shot a woman in Minneapolis on Wednesday was pulled about 100 yards by a car last year while firing a stun gun at the driver." So, this is a trend.

His failure to do his job correctly multiple times isn't justification for the murder of a 37 year old mother and the orphaning of her child. Most sane government agencies would make sure he knew and started following the required protocol so that he would be safe/competent the next time before putting him back on the street. Yet he again failed to do his job and follow protocol, and stood in front of a vehicle. Seem…

If my buddies' ex (a hair dresser) is required to have more schooling and education than US law enforcement officers, I feel it's safe to say that none of these officers are "trained".

Re: Let's call a murder a murder

#109

Post by UncleMeat »

bananabiscuit wrote: post #85

I don’t think this is as clear cut as anyone on either side is claiming. Looking [1], it does appear that Renee attempted to run the car right into the ICE officer, the wheels were still pointing slightly left, and the officer was still in front of the car. Also in [2] you can see that she was looking directly at the officer during this initial acceleration attempt. The only thing that saved the officer in that initi…

Wait. Looking at the officer is a threat now?

Re: Let's call a murder a murder

#110

Post by metaphysicalyes »

bananabiscuit wrote: post #85

I don’t think this is as clear cut as anyone on either side is claiming. Looking [1], it does appear that Renee attempted to run the car right into the ICE officer, the wheels were still pointing slightly left, and the officer was still in front of the car. Also in [2] you can see that she was looking directly at the officer during this initial acceleration attempt. The only thing that saved the officer in that initi…

First shot is a red herring. It might be legal in the US to shoot the driver trying to hit you when are already out of the vehicle's way.

The more condemnatory are the 2nd and 3rd shot from the side window. This is pure cruelty and disregard of human life which in a parallel universe could be one of your family member. Anyone justifying this deserves no sympathy from rest of the human populace.

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