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Minneapolis driver shot and killed by ICE

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Re: Minneapolis driver shot and killed by ICE

#371

Post by ajross »

kcplate wrote: post #118
Tadpole9181 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ICE has no legal ability to detain or arrest citizens or enforce traffic laws. So, regardless, they should have called the police.

Are you really suggesting that an armed federal law enforcement officer doesn’t have the ability to detain someone that they suspect is interfering with one of their operations? You might want to cite some case law here supporting that assertion. They may not be able to charge someone with a traffic infraction but can they detain someone? Absolutely.

> Are you really suggesting that an armed federal law enforcement officer doesn’t have the ability to detain someone that they suspect is interfering with one of their operations?

Well, gosh. It's a little rusty, but I'm pretty sure I was taught in school that the right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized

Something like that, anyway.

To be blunt: your assertion is batshit. NO, the cops can't just "detain" people on random "suspicion" of "interference". They need probable cause to suspect a crime in progress. Period. There are no exceptions. There never have been. If you want to argue that they clearly have the ability, you need to explain why that car in its perfectly legal travel lane was somehow a criminal violation. You seem extraordinarily inclined to split hairs on the other side of this argument, so it seems... odd that you're being so cavalier on this one.

No, ICE can't detain anyone on a "traffic infraction". No one can. That's not criminal, and you know it.

More to the point, obviously, sure: there are gray areas where cops stop teenagers to see if they run or smell like weed or whatever, and they can get away with it. They don't then proceed to shoot their suspects in the fucking face. Seriously? How are we possibly even having this discussion. There's no universe in which this is acceptable law enforcement practice.

Re: Minneapolis driver shot and killed by ICE

#372

Post by SanjayMehta »

metadope wrote: post #210
SanjayMehta wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you think that anyone outside of the US cares about what your regime does to you? I'm pointing out - for the umpteenth time - the sheer hypocrisy of the West, and especially the US. What your regime has been practising since 1945 outside of your borders has finally reached your own towns and cities, and frankly the only question I have is, what took so long?

I would expect humans to care about humans. Your judgment of hypocrisy is yours to own; you point out nothing but your own opinion. You left umpteenth behind a long time ago; you find hypocrisy everywhere, no?

So this link was posted by someone and flagged within seconds.

"American Samoa is the only U.S. state or territory where people are born without automatic citizenship, and without the right to vote in state, federal, and most local elections anywhere outside of American Samoa."

Hypocrisy, institutionalised.

https://boltsmag.org/prosecuted-for-voting-american-samoans-...

Re: Minneapolis driver shot and killed by ICE

#373

Post by kcplate »

_DeadFred_ wrote: post #280
kcplate wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Bro, you aren't anti qualified immunity, you are totally cool with it. > You are cool with this mother being murdered, and her daughter left an orphan tonight, Nope, quite the opposite, I’m just not caught up in the heat of the moment they way you are. When this is evaluated legally your emotion will not be taken into account. I specifically left emotion out of my observation and kept my observation as coldly speci…

Your logic would defend the Boston massacre that started our country. Your default reaction is to be un-American. Bro you shit posted FAFO to a 37 year old mom being murdered because she turned down a street that ice randomly had an unmarked car parked in the middle of. You aren't rational. You aren't middle of the road. You literally smuggly posted FAFO as your response to a mom with her call full of her childs stuf…

Just because people are demanding outrage doesn’t mean I have to shut off my brain and go along with it. Perhaps that is the way you want to operate, and good for you—you do you—but I don’t let my emotions overwhelm me about things like this.

You and others are essentially demanding that I believe a crafted narrative here and get all pissed off about it. It’s not a narrative that appears to supported by all of the confirmed information right now (and newsflash, I am not buying every detail the government is peddling either). I have seen a few comments on here purporting some “facts” that now appear to be in contradiction to some witness statements (non-ice/government and are protestors) on video that have even come out today.

That is the problem with crafting a narrative…sometimes information comes out and gets in the way of the story you want to tell. Lots of things being claimed in this crafted narrative (both yours and the governments) are easily proven or disproven and I am sure will be before this issue reaches a conclusion.

Bear in mind what I initially did here was posted was an assessment of what I observed in a video and how what was present within that video will likely make it difficult to get that agent’s qualified immunity waived and explained why. I have also responded to others who are suggesting violence as a response, countering that using your vote to change is the better way to go. You have probably seen me comment that when valid laws are being enforced, that interference with that enforcement can create problems for those doing the interference. You have seen me comment that we are where we are because America voted how it voted.

I stand by all of that no matter what the eventual conclusion of this event turns out to be.

Re: Minneapolis driver shot and killed by ICE

#374

Post by jacquesm »

nobody9999 wrote: post #343
Sam713 wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you watch the close up video from the 7 o’clock angle, you can clearly see that the tires don’t spin out by looking at the speed of the rims. Furthermore, imagine yourself in a situation where an aggressive, masked, armored, and armed person is trying to pull your door open while screaming in your face. You’re in full fight or flight mode, tunnel vision, scared, and confused. At this same time, unbeknownst to the…

I'd add that since, as ICE claims, Ms. Good had already been non-violently interacting with them, they had the opportunity to note the license plate and, if they felt criminal charges for obstructing their operations were appropriate, they could just go to her (nearby) house and arrest her later. There was absolutely no reason for the attempt to pull her out of her car, and even less for escalation to use deadly forc…

Well... it was said for a long time that Trump could execute someone on broadway and nobody would bat an eye, in fact that they would defend him. This effectively is precisely that, there is ample evidence that this was a cold blooded execution and yet there are plenty of people that are defending it. It's going to be a very interesting job for historians to look at this era to try to figure out how we collectively managed to go this far off the rails. We have no excuse either, the Germans at least could claim they didn't know (even if plenty of them did, it must have been true for some of them). For everybody with an internet connection that is not true.

Re: Minneapolis driver shot and killed by ICE

#375

Post by jacquesm »

Steltek wrote: post #370
lamontcg wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're more likely to get scolded here for accusing that person of being a shill/troll than to see them get removed for acting exactly like one. That kind of neutral bias is selectively employed to protect right wing takes from getting attacked by more liberal ones. Although, here's pg with a brief moment of insight: https://xcancel.com/paulg/status/2009219891933630925 > hardcore Trump supporters are indistinguishabl…

I'm immediately reminded of this: --- The moral of the story is: if you’re against witch-hunts, and you promise to found your own little utopian community where witch-hunts will never happen, your new society will end up consisting of approximately three principled civil libertarians and seven zillion witches. It will be a terrible place to live even if witch-hunts are genuinely wrong. --- https://slatestarcodex.com/…

It is unfortunately very true. For about 20 years I moderated a very large forum. We tried so hard to be even handed it was somewhat comical, and then one day I decided to just clean house. Things improved remarkably after that but there were always new people willing to see how far they could bend the rules. It's interesting how you get these new accounts on HN that immediately start lawyering with the rule book in hand. There is no way that that is organic.

Dan & Tom are so incredibly restrained, I'd be much more of a shoot-first-and-ask-questions-later type because the longer such behavior goes on the more people will believe it is acceptable.

Re: Minneapolis driver shot and killed by ICE

#376

Post by silexia »

mindslight wrote: post #369
silexia wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

jacquesm is a longstanding member of this community with serious technical chops. He has fabricated his own fucking windmill , among many other awe-inducing projects. I am an American, and I generally find his political judgements to be spot on, or if I disagree then at the very least enlightening. Frankly given the abjectly moronic siren song narratives too many of my "fellow countrymen" have fallen for, we could us…

[flagged]

Re: Minneapolis driver shot and killed by ICE

#377

Post by silexia »

jacquesm wrote: post #375
Steltek wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm immediately reminded of this: --- The moral of the story is: if you’re against witch-hunts, and you promise to found your own little utopian community where witch-hunts will never happen, your new society will end up consisting of approximately three principled civil libertarians and seven zillion witches. It will be a terrible place to live even if witch-hunts are genuinely wrong. --- https://slatestarcodex.com/…

It is unfortunately very true. For about 20 years I moderated a very large forum. We tried so hard to be even handed it was somewhat comical, and then one day I decided to just clean house. Things improved remarkably after that but there were always new people willing to see how far they could bend the rules. It's interesting how you get these new accounts on HN that immediately start lawyering with the rule book in…

[flagged]

Re: Minneapolis driver shot and killed by ICE

#378

Post by TimorousBestie »

silexia wrote: post #376
mindslight wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

jacquesm is a longstanding member of this community with serious technical chops. He has fabricated his own fucking windmill , among many other awe-inducing projects. I am an American, and I generally find his political judgements to be spot on, or if I disagree then at the very least enlightening. Frankly given the abjectly moronic siren song narratives too many of my "fellow countrymen" have fallen for, we could us…

[flagged]

> BTW - I come to hacker news to learn about entrepreneurs, programming, etc... not to argue politics. Let's go back to what this forum is for.

Most of your recent submissions and comments are political. I invite you to go back to posting about entrepreneurs, programming, and etc. if that’s what you’d rather be doing.

Re: Minneapolis driver shot and killed by ICE

#379

Post by croon »

mothballed wrote: post #265
croon wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is why de facto legality is very low value discussion fodder in an environment of rampant unenforcement of laws.

Quite the contrary, in such an environment it is even more important to figure out what is de facto legal because you cannot count on reading the law to determine such.

In such an environment "what" is irrelevant, it's merely about "who".

Re: Minneapolis driver shot and killed by ICE

#380

Post by resumenext »

Tadpole9181 wrote: post #339
resumenext wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your reasoning is flawed. The man could have parked his truck in front of her car and her ability to ram it wouldn’t make a difference. Most car jackers and would be rapists do not approach their victim on foot at a 0 degree approach angle, from the front, they come from 270 degrees (the driver side), where the door they will open is located. They cannot jack the car or rape without that side approach.

I'm sorry, does the gated community even let you out? Or women in? It's painfully obvious you've never in your life had to be concerned about your safety in any meaningful way. > Criminals would never get in front of a car. Especially after you legally mandate that by doing it their victim cannot escape by any means anymore. Like, can you even hear yourself?

What is the value of being in front of a car? The value is in opening the door, which is on the side. Sure you could have two jackers, one in front and another on the side but then running over 1 of the 2 (or more) again becomes useless as the side jacker would shoot you.

> Or women in?

You must be rolling in women. Lucky them. Maybe you can take them out to dinner and run over some car jackers on the way home.

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