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iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

developer.apple.com

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Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#391

Post by troupo »

leptons wrote: post #378
troupo wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Every browser that doesn't jump when Google says 'jump' is driven by malicious actors and intent that I can't articulate beyond some tin-foil conspiracy theories" is not as good an argument as you think it is

I really don't care what browsers do or don't implement. I only care that Apple doesn't allow other browsers to use their own browser engines on iOS. That's it, that's all, and it also got notice from the DOJ, which is one of many reasons Apple is getting sued by the DOJ. Until Apple lets other browser engines on iOS, they are behaving like greedy tyrants.

> I really don't care what browsers do or don't implement.

Oh yes, you do. To the point of inventing contract clauses for Firefox.

It's just extremely unfortunate that Safari is now between a rock and a hard place (only because of Apple) as really they are the only web engine of note to withstand "whatever Chrome spits out is standard now"

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#392

Post by kelthuzad »

troupo wrote: post #389
kelthuzad wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> by smearing critics as "conspiracy theorists" I mean, @lepton literally wrote this: "Maybe part of their agreement is to not implement some features because it would compete with Chrome" about Firefox. No smearing required. > Your deceptive rhetoric in defense of Apple's anti-competitive business practices i I literally say nothing avout Apple's business practices. All I'm talking are a bunch of Chrome-only non-sta…

>I mean, @lepton literally wrote this: "Maybe part of their agreement is to not implement some features because it would compete with Chrome" about Firefox. No smearing required.

Then you should have been more specific, but that is still not even remotely a conspiracy. It is a completely valid potential thesis. Thus, your attempt to hastily dismiss it as "conspiracy" is factually an act of smearing.

>I literally say nothing avout Apple's business practices. All I'm talking are a bunch of Chrome-only non-standards that people on HN pretend are standards and claim that everyone must immediately implement them

Your diatribes and foul language against the Chrome dev team have been in constant service of justifying Apple's actions at all cost, while outright ignoring and downplaying their evident conflict of interest. Furthermore, you need to stop with these gross misrepresentations of "HN pretend are standards and claim that everyone must immediately implement them" which is a distortion, that you keep forcefully putting in people's mouths, despite many people calling you out on it numerous times throughout this thread.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#393

Post by MBCook »

brokencode wrote: post #313
MBCook wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft didn’t control the number one search engine, the number one email client, the number one video site, probably the number one online office suite, the number one smartphone platform… It was possible to rip people away from Microsoft. That may not be something we can do this time with Chrome. Try telling someone that moving off of Chrome may mean moving off of every single Google property because Chrome is th…

Then it’d be time for round two of antitrust, and I doubt the judge and regulators would feel so understanding about Google keeping Chrome if that is the landscape.

I think that would’ve good. But…

1. The US isn’t doing this. They have a case but aren’t calling for breakup

2. We all know howling anti-trust and appeals take

If Google gets handed the web (let’s say) this year by Apple being forced to allow them, it could be a decade+ before the Google side gets tackled.

And I’m afraid of how much damage they can do in that timeframe.

I think fixing Google’s ownership over Chrome before forcing other browsers on iOS would be less harmless than forcing iOS to allow other browsers than doing Google.

I’m totally good with doing both. I worried about the effects of the order they’re done in.

And I am only saying this about browser engines. This should not be taken to say Apple should be able to do some of the other nonsense they’ve been doing for 10+ years abusing their position.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#394

Post by kelthuzad »

troupo wrote: post #391
leptons wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't care what browsers do or don't implement. I only care that Apple doesn't allow other browsers to use their own browser engines on iOS. That's it, that's all, and it also got notice from the DOJ, which is one of many reasons Apple is getting sued by the DOJ. Until Apple lets other browser engines on iOS, they are behaving like greedy tyrants.

> I really don't care what browsers do or don't implement. Oh yes, you do. To the point of inventing contract clauses for Firefox. It's just extremely unfortunate that Safari is now between a rock and a hard place (only because of Apple) as really they are the only web engine of note to withstand "whatever Chrome spits out is standard now"

[flagged]

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#395

Post by MBCook »

eklavya wrote: post #340
MBCook wrote: post #172

I’m not going to say I think Apple should be able to lock out competing browsers, I know this is going to happen. But God I don’t want this. The iPhone is basically the only thing stopping a total Chrome/Chromium hegemony from ruling the web the way IE did. I don’t think Google will practically abandon things the way Microsoft did. But they will absolutely have the kind of power Microsoft did to force any feature. I…

Pretty damning evaluation of apple's capabilities to be sure that they won't be able to compete on merit! I don't believe that. So much apple software is absolutely loved.

I love Safari. I’ve used it since the day I bought a Mac not long after it was released. Back when they still bundled IE 5.5.

I don’t think they can compete. Apple doesn’t release Safari on Windows (any more, god it was bad) and that basically kills their chance at desktop relevance.

But even if they did my point is Google has way WAY WAY too much leverage and is already in an effective near monopoly position due to making Chromium. iOS is the only reasonably sized bastion left.

And that’s entirely due to Apple’s policy, whether one thinks it’s right or wrong.

The stakes are way too tilted. The market can’t function.

And we’re about to see it “freed”, which is basically handing it to Google for a total monopoly.

And I don’t like that future. Whatever I think of all the other issues with both Apple and Google right now and what has happened in the past.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#396

Post by MBCook »

Max-Limelihood wrote: post #326
MBCook wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that the root of the problem is that Google was not broken up. I don’t think one company should own all the stuff that Google does. It gives them way too many perverse incentives over the web. I’m not saying it’s smart we got here. I’m not saying it’s good we got here. I’m not saying we should be here. All I’m saying is we ARE here. And given that (effective screw up) I fear this will make things drasti…

> I don’t think one company should own all the stuff that Google does. It gives them way too many perverse incentives over the web. Does it? It might give them perverse incentives in some cases, but in others it perfectly aligns their incentives by letting them internalize their externalities. The whole selling point of Chrome to executives, and the reason it's introduced so many nice features, is that consolidating…

We all think of them as Google but let’s face it, they’re DoubleClick.

Google feeds DoubleClick. Gmail does too. YouTube is a pure ad play.

Drive/Docs/etc. I’d say drives Chrome and undercuts competitors.

And Chrome? It drives Google. And Google also helps drive YouTube.

They all end in ads.

If Chrome wasn’t owned by an ad company that owned all that other stuff I wouldn’t be as worried. I still don’t like the idea of a Chrome monoculture. But if it was independent I’d be less alarmed.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#397

Post by bangaladore »

dagmx wrote: post #370
bangaladore wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I meant the WebKit guidelines were from the commenter, not from the apple page. > or features that improve memory safety within other languages, within the alternative web browser engine at a minimum for all code that processes web content; This can't be analyzed in any real way, so its just another way that Apple will restrict web engines and claim it was due to "not enough use of memory saf…

Why does it matter if Apple themselves don’t link the WebKit docs? It’s literally their project and seems to meet their requirements. There’s a lot of things in the requirements like funding that Apple cannot verify. I think you’re being too binary in this. Some of it is very clearly intended to be a “show us you are at least considering these security measures and have practices in place to minimize known issues”. A…

> It’s literally their project and seems to meet their requirements.

This is meaningless. Apple can carve out special exceptions for themselves all day long.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#398

Post by Max-Limelihood »

gyomu wrote: post #196
OptionOfT wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At a hardware level it seemed to work. Looking at USB-C on iPhones for example. Software wise? Fail. EEA gets to disable start search in Windows 11. RoW does not. Interestingly EEA membership is decided at install time based on your selection, and is not changeable afterwards. iPhones on the other hand have a daemon running that checks your location. It's not based on where you set up the phone. So traveling from Eur…

1) Apple loves USB-C, they helped invent it and were one of the first to ship a USB-C only laptop 2) Apple committed to 10 years of lightning support to weather the backlash from dropping 30-pin USB-C on iPhone was going to happen regardless of the EU.

> 1) Apple loves USB-C Sure, that's why they refused to adopt it for almost a decade after it became the standard and fought the EU regulation tooth-and-nail.

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#399

Post by crazygringo »

kelthuzad wrote: post #392
troupo wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> by smearing critics as "conspiracy theorists" I mean, @lepton literally wrote this: "Maybe part of their agreement is to not implement some features because it would compete with Chrome" about Firefox. No smearing required. > Your deceptive rhetoric in defense of Apple's anti-competitive business practices i I literally say nothing avout Apple's business practices. All I'm talking are a bunch of Chrome-only non-sta…

>I mean, @lepton literally wrote this: "Maybe part of their agreement is to not implement some features because it would compete with Chrome" about Firefox. No smearing required. Then you should have been more specific, but that is still not even remotely a conspiracy. It is a completely valid potential thesis. Thus, your attempt to hastily dismiss it as "conspiracy" is factually an act of smearing. >I literally say…

> but that is still not even remotely a conspiracy. It is a completely valid potential thesis

I dunno, man. It's claiming a literal conspiracy between Google and Firefox to make Firefox worse. In reality, it's an outlandish proposition because Google already holds such high market share for Chrome, they need Firefox as a viable competitor to avoid antitrust concerns. The idea that they'd contractually (or behind-closed-doors) engage in hobbling Firefox is fantasy territory -- literally conspiracy theorizing. Because of the huge legal and financial risks that would entail if ever discovered. So, when something's an actual conspiracy theory, it's right to call it out as such.

> Your diatribes and foul language against the Chrome dev team... you need to stop with these gross misrepresentations...

I'm Ctrl+F-ing here through troupo's comments and not seeing anything like that. Their points seem perfectly reasonable, that Firefox also doesn't implement these features, and therefore Apple's actions might be very reasonably explained as having the same genuine reasons.

On the other hand you're the one saying things like:

> Apple will uphold its usual charade to claim that it's about pRiVacy & sEcuRiTy

> Your bias in this matter couldn't be more obvious, due to your dedication to distorting any evidence that refutes Apple's propaganda narrative

> It's absolutely insane how you keep repeating the exact same argument with no additional information like a bot who is incapable of processing new information

> that's the only way you can uphold the illusion that your underhanded Apple propaganda is anything other than a whitewashing of Apple's conflict of interest that motivates every single one of their decisions

> Your rhetoric is so vapid and detached from reality

> It's incredible how you insist on being so obnoxious

> That reads like an #ad that Apple would pay for

It looks like you're the one imagining conspiracies in Apple's behavior -- "that motivates every single one of their decisions" -- and attacking others in your own "diatribes". And you're the one using incredibly insulting and inappropriate language. It seems to be your comments that have a lot of inappropriate tone for HN, which is presumably why I see a lot of them downvoted. Maybe you should think about whether this is really the best way to engage here, maybe re-read the HN guidelines?

Re: iOS allows alternative browser engines in Japan

#400

Post by ladyanita22 »

rafram wrote: post #5
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #4

I know this isn't new for Japan, but this requirement caught my eye: > Use memory-safe programming languages, or features that improve memory safety within other languages, within the alternative web browser engine at a minimum for all code that processes web content Would Apple themselves meet this requirement? Isn't WebKit C++? Of course, I'm not sure what would be considered "features that improve memory safety wi…

https://github.com/WebKit/WebKit/wiki/Safer-CPP-Guidelines

Apple's resistance to rust is truly mind-boggling
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